Two Hawks receivers - worst hands since Jackson & Robinson.

Optimus25

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Aros":1ojz8n8t said:
MontanaHawk05":1ojz8n8t said:
Aros":1ojz8n8t said:
If Graham is still with us (highly doubtful in 2018) I will eat my hat. He couldn't have looked more disinterested through much of the season between the 20's. Amazing red zone target but outside of that? Meh. Atleast in our scheme. Meh.

Tired of this narrative. It was the opposite in 2016.

Truth is that Jimmy Graham in 2017 checked out mentally inside the 20's and the only time he seemed to give a damn was in the endzone to pad his stats for a better contract elsewhere in 2018.

I think the checking out mentally piece was justified since he would come to the huddle time after time after time and hear the same stupid play calls between the twenties, ie, first down runs against wash that set up second and third and longs every series.

At some point i can't blame a player for emotionally responding to bevells stupidity. The same plays that were high percentage easy catches in the red zone could have been picking up numerous first downs at the fifty too.
 

seahawkfreak

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mikeak":3m2w4e5b said:
IndyHawk":3m2w4e5b said:
jammerhawk":3m2w4e5b said:
Thing about Richardson is he gets hurt somehow every season and then is limited.

He will likely be gone in FA, as the team should not overpay for him.
This..He has missed a lot of games,why pay high for that reason?


Don't let facts get in the way

He missed one season

http://www.nfl.com/player/paulrichardso ... areerstats

He's missed 27% of season games in his career. You could argue if that is a lot or not but this was his first real productive year, which at best I would give a C+ to B-. He is not going to be cheap to resign and we probably would have to "overpay" him if he were to stay a Seahawk.
 

AROS

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Optimus25":16m6nrpv said:
I think the checking out mentally piece was justified since he would come to the huddle time after time after time and hear the same stupid play calls between the twenties, ie, first down runs against wash that set up second and third and longs every series.

At some point i can't blame a player for emotionally responding to bevells stupidity. The same plays that were high percentage easy catches in the red zone could have been picking up numerous first downs at the fifty too.

I hear you but at the same time there's something to be said about still being a professional. He is paid millions of dollars to perform and that includes not checking out mentally just because he doesn't like the play call(s).
 

scrummymustard

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vin.couve12":1qax6jbv said:
To me at least, Graham is sort of an irrelevant conversation unless you play him out wide and in the slot almost exclusively. He's just not a real TE, in my mind. Not the Y TE that plays in line or even a Move TE that motions across as a second TE. Even the Move TE is responsible for kick out blocks and even some lead blocking. I absolutely DO NOT want Graham playing TE for us. He is the most severe detriment to the Seahawks running game I've seen possibly ever. He really is soft...that was an accurate assessment then and it still is.

When it comes to Richardson, I don't want to really pay him at all, let alone more than a couple million. IMO, Darboh has true overall #1WR ability and he needs to get on the field as a starter next year. His upside is far greater than Richardson, who is really only a vertical threat, albeit a pretty good one. I also really like Moore. He has a running back background with outstanding athletic ability and plays like it when the ball is in his hands.

To me, both conversations about Graham and Richardson are that they are niche players. Each does one thing very well, but kind of suck at everything else in the job description. I am absolutely not in favor of paying either and haven't been all offseason. I just happened to find this vid that shows some of their shortcomings in the one area that pertains to the lone thing they are each good at, lessening even that value.

The biggest detriment to the Hawks run game is and always will be Tom Cable and the Oline play/development.

$9mil LT, $8 mil LG, $9mil C, 2nd round RG, 1st round RT.

You are placing the biggest detriment to the run game to a pass catching TE, when ample money/resources have been allocated to an OL that does not produce. Even if Zach Miller at his prime was on the team last year, the Hawks still wouldn't have been able to run the ball. A competent Oline is so much more important than a run blocking TE.


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vin.couve12

vin.couve12

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scrummymustard":10pbkrrc said:
vin.couve12":10pbkrrc said:
To me at least, Graham is sort of an irrelevant conversation unless you play him out wide and in the slot almost exclusively. He's just not a real TE, in my mind. Not the Y TE that plays in line or even a Move TE that motions across as a second TE. Even the Move TE is responsible for kick out blocks and even some lead blocking. I absolutely DO NOT want Graham playing TE for us. He is the most severe detriment to the Seahawks running game I've seen possibly ever. He really is soft...that was an accurate assessment then and it still is.

When it comes to Richardson, I don't want to really pay him at all, let alone more than a couple million. IMO, Darboh has true overall #1WR ability and he needs to get on the field as a starter next year. His upside is far greater than Richardson, who is really only a vertical threat, albeit a pretty good one. I also really like Moore. He has a running back background with outstanding athletic ability and plays like it when the ball is in his hands.

To me, both conversations about Graham and Richardson are that they are niche players. Each does one thing very well, but kind of suck at everything else in the job description. I am absolutely not in favor of paying either and haven't been all offseason. I just happened to find this vid that shows some of their shortcomings in the one area that pertains to the lone thing they are each good at, lessening even that value.

The biggest detriment to the Hawks run game is and always will be Tom Cable and the Oline play/development.

$9mil LT, $8 mil LG, $9mil C, 2nd round RG, 1st round RT.

You are placing the biggest detriment to the run game to a pass catching TE, when ample money/resources have been allocated to an OL that does not produce. Even if Zach Miller at his prime was on the team last year, the Hawks still wouldn't have been able to run the ball. A competent Oline is so much more important than a run blocking TE.


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I'm not talking football philosophy. I'm saying I've watched him literally fail repeatedly and be responsible for no gains and TFLs over and over and over. Evereyone else doing their job and the play is literally HIS fault. He sucks. WR or bust.
 

Sports Hernia

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Aros":3v6ur7yg said:
Optimus25":3v6ur7yg said:
I think the checking out mentally piece was justified since he would come to the huddle time after time after time and hear the same stupid play calls between the twenties, ie, first down runs against wash that set up second and third and longs every series.

At some point i can't blame a player for emotionally responding to bevells stupidity. The same plays that were high percentage easy catches in the red zone could have been picking up numerous first downs at the fifty too.

I hear you but at the same time there's something to be said about still being a professional. He is paid millions of dollars to perform and that includes not checking out mentally just because he doesn't like the play call(s).
Absolutely. But he is human as well. I did not think “I’m Jimmy” checked out on purpose, I think it was more of a subconscious thing. “I’m Jimmy” is at fault for his lack of production in some areas but I haven’t seen a player that is such a physical mismatch so misused in my 40+ years of watching sports. JG could have been and should have been an unstoppable force if used correctly IMHO.
 

Rat

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We're going to look really stupid when Graham's career, sans his Seahawks time, is Hall of Fame caliber.
 

IndyHawk

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hawknation2018":1bgrxqvo said:
Need to get Wilson receivers.
:lol: No money for that..
He needs a line,two running backs and a new playbook with instructions.
 

scrummymustard

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Sports Hernia":2i9zxsv4 said:
Aros":2i9zxsv4 said:
Optimus25":2i9zxsv4 said:
I think the checking out mentally piece was justified since he would come to the huddle time after time after time and hear the same stupid play calls between the twenties, ie, first down runs against wash that set up second and third and longs every series.

At some point i can't blame a player for emotionally responding to bevells stupidity. The same plays that were high percentage easy catches in the red zone could have been picking up numerous first downs at the fifty too.

I hear you but at the same time there's something to be said about still being a professional. He is paid millions of dollars to perform and that includes not checking out mentally just because he doesn't like the play call(s).
Absolutely. But he is human as well. I did not think “I’m Jimmy” checked out on purpose, I think it was more of a subconscious thing. “I’m Jimmy” is at fault for his lack of production in some areas but I haven’t seen a player that is such a physical mismatch so misused in my 40+ years of watching sports. JG could have been and should have been an unstoppable force if used correctly IMHO.

Couldn't agree more. It would be like trading for Tom Brady and asking him to run the read option over and over.

Graham's average air yards per target was a career low 7.6 yards in 2017, Luke Willson was 7.0, Vannett 7.2

2016: JG, 9.4. Luke 8.1
2015: JG 9.2, Luke 7.8
2014: Luke 9.8

For whatever reasons, I'm assuming the lack of OL, and having to chip block, TEs were not running as many routes down the field in 2017.




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Seymour

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IndyHawk":1onc3qzd said:
hawknation2018":1onc3qzd said:
Need to get Wilson receivers.
:lol: No money for that..
He needs a line,two running backs and a new playbook with instructions.

So.... too short, too expensive, and now too stupid also? :roll:

I'm pretty sure Andrew Luck could use a few more "fans".
 

hawknation2018

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Rat":15lv5ssz said:
We're going to look really stupid when Graham's career, sans his Seahawks time, is Hall of Fame caliber.

Too late. Bevell already looks very stupid. :p
 

KiwiHawk

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scrummymustard":21pp7ulr said:
Graham's average air yards per target was a career low 7.6 yards in 2017, Luke Willson was 7.0, Vannett 7.2

2016: JG, 9.4. Luke 8.1
2015: JG 9.2, Luke 7.8
2014: Luke 9.8

For whatever reasons, I'm assuming the lack of OL, and having to chip block, TEs were not running as many routes down the field in 2017.
Statistics in a vacuum are meaningless. They only become relevant with context.

"Air Yards is recorded as 0 when the pass is thrown to or behind the Line of Scrimmage. Additionally Air Yards is not calculated into the back of the end zone."

The context of this stat is the way the Seahawks use Graham, which was in short goal-to-go situations. Even if you throw 12 actual yards to the back of the end zone, it only counts as a 2-yard throw. He had 10 TDs in 15 red-zone targets, which would normally be considered quite successful, but because the goal line limited the number of yards, he only averaged 6.3 YPC on those. Between the 20s, his average was closer to 11 YPC.

However, as it is HIS JOB to convert red zone opportunities - as in the stated reason for acquiring him - I don't know that it's correct for us to cast shade on him for doing what he was brought here to do.
 

Seymour

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So is dropping the 2nd most ball in the entire NFL what Jimmy was paid to do then?
 

hawknation2018

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Graham was frustrated by Bevell's stupidity and his misuse in this offense. He looked tuned out . . . and I can't blame him.

I hope they can re-sign Graham, by convincing him that he will be used as a receiver, or else we are facing a massive drop-off in receiving talent in 2018.
 

KiwiHawk

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Seymour":28aoj7et said:
So is dropping the 2nd most ball in the entire NFL what Jimmy was paid to do then?
Because discussing his average air yards per target means I am excusing his drops?

This kind of comment is absolutely asinine and unnecessary. It's logically fallacious and meant to do nothing more than annoy the person it's aimed at. We all know that's not what I was referring to. You are just grandstanding for no apparent reason by creating a strawman.

This is why this site sucks.
 

Seymour

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KiwiHawk":6m8qq9ta said:
Seymour":6m8qq9ta said:
So is dropping the 2nd most ball in the entire NFL what Jimmy was paid to do then?
Because discussing his average air yards per target means I am excusing his drops?

This kind of comment is absolutely asinine and unnecessary. It's logically fallacious and meant to do nothing more than annoy the person it's aimed at. We all know that's not what I was referring to. You are just grandstanding for no apparent reason by creating a strawman.

This is why this site sucks.

Your opinion I suppose. Mine is that is not all of what he was paid to do, and it was directed at this comment.

KiwiHawk":6m8qq9ta said:
I don't know that it's correct for us to cast shade on him for doing what he was brought here to do.

Differing opinions don't make a site "suck". Intolerance to them can though. You may want to refresh your memory on the thread title as well.
 

KiwiHawk

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Seymour":3ocnb12o said:
KiwiHawk":3ocnb12o said:
Seymour":3ocnb12o said:
So is dropping the 2nd most ball in the entire NFL what Jimmy was paid to do then?
Because discussing his average air yards per target means I am excusing his drops?

This kind of comment is absolutely asinine and unnecessary. It's logically fallacious and meant to do nothing more than annoy the person it's aimed at. We all know that's not what I was referring to. You are just grandstanding for no apparent reason by creating a strawman.

This is why this site sucks.

Your opinion I suppose. Mine is that is not all of what he was paid to do, and it was directed at this comment.

KiwiHawk":3ocnb12o said:
I don't know that it's correct for us to cast shade on him for doing what he was brought here to do.

Differing opinions don't make a site "suck". Intolerance to them can though. You may want to refresh your memory on the thread title as well.
We can differ on opinions - I have no problem with that.

My problem is that blatant logical fallacies use as cheap shots are not moderated. They should be as they are deliberately inflammatory.
 
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