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Art Thiel ask if its Time to trade Russell

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  • He has been damn good in the 4th when behind.

    But to be fair, he has been pretty close to terrible in quarters 1-3, almost all year.

    Now the question is, was that his fault, or the fault of some awful offensive scheme we put together
    ?

    And as Vin pointed out, it wasn't just this year. Remember that playoff game that we had against Carolina where we were striving to come back but just ran out of time? That 1st half hole we got put in the first place was dug mostly by Wilson, esp that interception.

    What about the Green Bay playoff miracle game that we came back in? You forget how godawful terrible Wilson was in that first few quarters? You could easily argue that forcing our defense to hold that game in check for that long injured BOTH Earl and Kam, which is a big part of the reason our secondary struggled so much against Brady in the SB.

    So let's not wax poetic about what a great job Wilson did bailing us out in those games because he was a big part of the reason we were behind in the first place. And his play in the GB game arguably cost us the SB because of injuries to key players in that game as they were forced to cover for his poor play.

    (And yes Kearse dropped some of those, but then why the hell did he keep throwing them to him? That said, some of those 'drops' were garbage passes)
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  • Every QB has those games a few times a year.

    28-3 ring a bell to anyone?

    Also lets not discount Pete and his "it's not how you start" attitude playing into the conservative nature of "wearing the other team down" playing into this.
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  • I actually think that Wilson under a good OC would find he is a lot better than he was allowing himself to be.

    Not sure we solved the problem with Schoddy, but I would have taken Haley in a heartbeat.

    My worry is more that the quarter 1-3 garbage is due to some stupid outdated and no longer relevant philosophy that Pete is clinging to, but I really hope that concern vanishes once I see the offense actually putting TDs on the board in the early parts of a game too. You never know.

    Given what we know about what he had to work with, some benefit of the doubt to Wilson is due. But it isn't fair to point out all his comebacks and then dismiss he was a part of the reason for those comebacks.
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  • Trade him to the Yankees.....oh wait......
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  • Hm so the stats show Russ has been better in the fourth and third string the other three quarters all his career? Then why was he rated higher in the first half compared to the second last year!? Recency bias. He didn't have the second all time (100+) passer rating his first four years by being a scrub in the first three quarters. He's still second all time right now and just under 100.
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  • :229031_cheers:
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  • Seymour wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:Take the comeback stats and throw them out. Fair is fair. A comeback is meaningless when you create tje situation in first place by playing like a 3rd string QB for 2.5 quarters.

    It is self induced bs of a lie heroics. It should never get to that point. If RW doesn't improve in that area then sourcing another QB is absolutely warranted. It's not acceptable.


    The crappy first half starts didn't happen until the 2017 season. So you want to erase all the comebacks in his previous 5 years and call that "fair"? Sounds like a slighted opinion to me.



    I believe the NFCCG vs. Green Bay occured earlier than 2017.....a perfect example of classic Russ.

    This has been a trend....well pretty much always with RW. I didn't even know it was a debate, figured it was just...known.
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  • Hawkpower wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:Take the comeback stats and throw them out. Fair is fair. A comeback is meaningless when you create tje situation in first place by playing like a 3rd string QB for 2.5 quarters.

    It is self induced bs of a lie heroics. It should never get to that point. If RW doesn't improve in that area then sourcing another QB is absolutely warranted. It's not acceptable.


    The crappy first half starts didn't happen until the 2017 season. So you want to erase all the comebacks in his previous 5 years and call that "fair"? Sounds like a slighted opinion to me.



    I believe the NFCCG vs. Green Bay occured earlier than 2017.....a perfect example of classic Russ.

    This has been a trend....well pretty much always with RW. I didn't even know it was a debate, figured it was just...known.


    One way to look at it is that it wasn't an arresting aspect of the offense when RW wasn't the entirety of the offense.
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  • vin.couve12 wrote:Take the comeback stats and throw them out. Fair is fair. A comeback is meaningless when you create tje situation in first place by playing like a 3rd string QB for 2.5 quarters.

    It is self induced bs of a lie heroics. It should never get to that point. If RW doesn't improve in that area then sourcing another QB is absolutely warranted. It's not acceptable.


    OK, so anytime a player is part of a comeback, especially a QB, they should not receive praise for it because they were a part of the reason that the comeback was needed in the first place.

    For instance, Tom Brady should not be praised for bringing his team back from a 25 point deficit in the 2nd half of the Super Bowl because as QB, he was a big reason they were down by 25 in the first place.

    Am I doing it right or does that "no credit for comebacks" thing only apply to Russ, but not guys like Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers who also have a lot of comebacks on their resumes?
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  • That depends.

    A lot of QBs are part of comebacks because their defense keeps the opposing teams in the game by continually giving up scores.

    That would be rare with our defense.

    Some quarterbacks get lots of comebacks because they are in shoot outs. Same response as above.

    But yes, if the QB is terrible for several quarters or the offense is terrible for several quarters, and the QB comes storming back then yes you have to acknowledge that part of this 'accomplishment' wouldn't be needed if the offense produced anything for 3 quarters earlier.


    And the Aaron Rodgers thing is hilarious. Rodgers has comebacks because his defense kept giving up the lead. So yes, then he has to come back from behind...alot.
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  • Even with his 1st-3rd-quarter faults well-documented, Russ is still better than the QB hell we'd be leaping into if we traded him. Get him a RB.
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  • vin.couve12 wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:Take the comeback stats and throw them out. Fair is fair. A comeback is meaningless when you create tje situation in first place by playing like a 3rd string QB for 2.5 quarters.

    It is self induced bs of a lie heroics. It should never get to that point. If RW doesn't improve in that area then sourcing another QB is absolutely warranted. It's not acceptable.


    The crappy first half starts didn't happen until the 2017 season. So you want to erase all the comebacks in his previous 5 years and call that "fair"? Sounds like a slighted opinion to me.

    It's always been there. It just wasn't as clearly visible to most because we had a running game. RW had never been a QB who comes out throwing accurately. It's always taken him a while to loosen up. It's yet another way he reminds me of McNabb.

    This is true ..RW has always seemed to take a half or more to get going
    and a great D with a running game masked those late starts.
    I was never on this elite bandwagon for reasons such as this.
    He is good guy and a tough sob..I will give him that..
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  • We don't know how much of it is his fault.

    He runs the offense he is given.

    I wish he was more belligerent & demanding, more focused on putting up more TDs but he is the closest thing to a company man on that team.

    We just need to know why they ran that damn offense in the first place, were they shielding Russell or holding him back?
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  • vin.couve12 wrote:When you're talking about statistics with video evidence that's not an assumption. It's not alternative facts either.


    The only game where Russ had a 4th quarter comeback or game winning drive where I'd peg him as the party primarily responsible for the deficit to begin with would be the NFC Championship game against the Packers. That's it.

    You have a tough case to make to try and convince most anyone else otherwise.
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  • vin.couve12 wrote:Y'all don't need to be bi-polar about this. Hawks need to plan ahead for potential future replacements just like any other position. Step back and take the crazy out of it.



    Future replacement? The guys not even 30. Great QBs (which he is) play into their 40s.
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  • For a thread like this I can only offer my thoughts in haiku.

    Oh Arty enough.
    Appreciate the good laugh.
    Man desperate for clicks.
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  • I would do it.

    I would only do it with Cleveland.

    I would demand picks 1, 4, 33 this year
    Next years 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders
    2020's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rounders
    2021's 1st rounder
    AND G Joel Bitonio.

    (So basically yeah, I wouldn't do it.)
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  • vin.couve12 wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:Take the comeback stats and throw them out. Fair is fair. A comeback is meaningless when you create tje situation in first place by playing like a 3rd string QB for 2.5 quarters.

    It is self induced bs of a lie heroics. It should never get to that point. If RW doesn't improve in that area then sourcing another QB is absolutely warranted. It's not acceptable.


    The crappy first half starts didn't happen until the 2017 season. So you want to erase all the comebacks in his previous 5 years and call that "fair"? Sounds like a slighted opinion to me.

    It's always been there. It just wasn't as clearly visible to most because we had a running game. RW had never been a QB who comes out throwing accurately. It's always taken him a while to loosen up. It's yet another way he reminds me of McNabb.



    The stats don't back this up though so what are you basing this on? Wilson's highest comp% Q is Q1 so citing accuracy early as the one thing to bolster your point kinda makes it seem like you are pulling it out of you know where. His 1st/2nd half stat splits for his career are not wildly variant at all. He gets way fewer attempts in Q1 than any other quarter so maybe that's tricking you a little bit but that's design more than poor play. The other user was correct, the wild quarter variants only really happened in 2017. All these stats are publicly available. Using your 'memory' of games or whatever else has huge flaws and when a stat sample size is 5 seasons it gets pretty telling.


    Just a fun FYI I found in the stat splits is that you should always let Wilson have the ball on 2nd and long. Absolute assassin stats in that situation with a large sample size.
    Last edited by erik2690 on Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
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  • Hawkpower wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:Take the comeback stats and throw them out. Fair is fair. A comeback is meaningless when you create tje situation in first place by playing like a 3rd string QB for 2.5 quarters.

    It is self induced bs of a lie heroics. It should never get to that point. If RW doesn't improve in that area then sourcing another QB is absolutely warranted. It's not acceptable.


    The crappy first half starts didn't happen until the 2017 season. So you want to erase all the comebacks in his previous 5 years and call that "fair"? Sounds like a slighted opinion to me.



    I believe the NFCCG vs. Green Bay occured earlier than 2017.....a perfect example of classic Russ.

    This has been a trend....well pretty much always with RW. I didn't even know it was a debate, figured it was just...known.


    Wait......your counter is to point to literally 1 game? I mean sample size matters big time. That's not a sensible counter argument at all.
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  • TwistedHusky wrote:
    I wish he was more belligerent & demanding, more focused on putting up more TDs but he is the closest thing to a company man on that team.


    I'm confused honestly. He lead the league in TD's. What does "focusing" more on them mean if not leading the league in them?
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  • Because people choose to dislike the guy. It has been going on his entire career. No mo matter what he does, not good enough for many. As far as NFC Championship goes, butterfingers Kearse was a massive reason they got on that hole.
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  • They are talking about extending or even franchising Wilson after his contract expires in 2 years on 950. He will very likely be north of $30M, and his 2nd franchise tag (if they went that route) would be $39 million dollars!!!

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  • :yawn: You may not have a choice to replace RW this very next season. Especially if it's a very serious leg injury where it robs RW if any speed or quickness he has left while approaching 30. He better start becoming a pure pocket passer real quick.

    Or he could have a career threatening injury. Y'all are always talking about Tom Brady and the pats...know what BB always has? A developing backup that gets PAID more often than not.

    It's not to late to start being smart rather than emotional.
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  • erik2690 wrote:
    TwistedHusky wrote:
    I wish he was more belligerent & demanding, more focused on putting up more TDs but he is the closest thing to a company man on that team.


    I'm confused honestly. He lead the league in TD's. What does "focusing" more on them mean if not leading the league in them?


    I think for some at least, that means focusing on the ones he didn't get, and use that to run him out of town.
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  • Yeah, Russell Wilson isn't focused on scoring TD's. It hurts your head to read some of the crap on here sometimes......
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  • Wilson scores lots of TDs.

    But a large reason he has so many is because there are no TD vultures.

    Very rarely are we completing a drive with a RB running for the score.

    Contrast that with the #s for a typical NFL offense.

    Inside the 5, many offenses are going to score TDs with their RB. We probably aren't.

    You could argue that he gets his TD totals inflated by the fact that there is little to no element by which the team can reasonably be expected to score TDs. Most of the other QBs will have their TD count reduced by at least 1/4 to 1/3 just because those scores are being made in the run game.

    So the problem is that while WILSON scores lots of TDs, he is the face of an offense that is literally setting records for ineffectiveness in scoring TDs. We had one stretch over the past few years where we went MULTIPLE GAMES without being able to score a TD.

    Additionally, our ability to score TDs in drives during the 1st-2nd quarters is well documented. We are not just terrible, we are historically bad.

    I am betting that while Wilson scores more TDs than other QBs, his % effectiveness at scoring TDs per drive is likely worse than most QBs. But I have not checked the #s and it probably is not even his fault if this is true.

    What I am clear on is that Wilson does not seem too upset about barely bothering to score in the 1st through 2nd quarters. And that inability to put points on the board in the first half of the game has cost us both games, and likely a trip to the playoffs.

    Putting up more TDs than other QBs on a team that fails to score TDs at a historic clip is probably not putting up enough. And you cannot say he is doing all he can because we do almost nothing for a full half unless we fall behind. Maybe he is doing all he is ALLOWED to, but that is a different issue.
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  • Right, because you know what Wilson is thinking. Yeah, I'm sure he's plenty happy to not score TD's until the 4th quarter. Did this guy do something to you personally? Is he supposed to freak out and scream in people's faces if they don't score a TD? I'll take a guy who believes that they are never out of the game and never gives up.
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  • I can think of a number of QBs that would be visibly and publicly upset with a system that limited TDs until the 4th or unless behind. And that kind of campaign would very likely result in a change that led to more 1st to 2nd quarter TDs.

    One of them has a last name Rodgers.

    Can you think of a few ?

    Now, why is Wilson silent on this? Considering this would impact W/L and playoff possibilities? In fact, I can think of very few supposedly 'elite' QBs that would tolerate this at all. Why does Wilson?
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  • You have convinced yourself that one of the most competitive players in the league is satisfied with just scoring touchdowns in the second half. Believe what you want. Your Wilson hate is showing, as usual.
    Oh well, Go Hawks
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  • TwistedHusky wrote:
    So the problem is that while WILSON scores lots of TDs, he is the face of an offense that is literally setting records for ineffectiveness in scoring TDs. We had one stretch over the past few years where we went MULTIPLE GAMES without being able to score a TD..


    2017 #7 in league in TD's
    2016 #18 in league
    2015 #6 in league
    2014 # 11 in league

    The only outlier in scoring TD rank is 2016..........which just so happens to be the year Russell was hurt all year. So if there's any indictment to his value on this team, it's making the case for the opposite of what you're saying. He's even MORE important and vital to this offense, because when he's hurt this offense is downright terrible.

    And yes, the first half futility is well documented, and part of that is on Russell. So we'll see if the coordinator and shift back to the run game helps the offense be more productive in the first half.

    But make no mistake, this team scores TD's, and Russell's the biggest reason.
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  • SoulfishHawk wrote:You have convinced yourself that one of the most competitive players in the league is satisfied with just scoring touchdowns in the second half. Believe what you want. Your Wilson hate is showing, as usual.
    Oh well, Go Hawks


    This. The whole "oh he's not visibly mad so he's not a good leader and doesn't care enough" is flat out nonsense. It's not football, it's innuendo and gossip tier reasoning. Oh, Rodgers looks mad and Brady yelled at his coach? Don't give a damn.
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  • I never said Wilson was to blame RE:1st half futility.

    Some of you are responding as if this was even implied. It isn't.

    I said I wished he would take it upon himself to wage more of a campaign and lobby against it.

    But yes, no way in the hell would Rodgers stand for something like this.
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  • TwistedHusky wrote:
    I said I wished he would take it upon himself to wage more of a campaign and lobby against it..


    Who's to say he hasn't? Just because Russell doesn't use the press like Rodgers and some other QB's to air their dissatisfaction doesn't mean he's not lobbying and complaining in the meeting rooms.

    IMO it's up to Pete and the coordinators to figure out how to get Russell going faster, rather than it' something he needs to actively lobby for.................especially through the press or social media.

    Russell's a tempo/rhythm QB, so if we're pointing to the main reason he's better in the 2nd half of games? That's it, it takes him and that long to get into rhythm. Which the stats bear out, every single one of his QB stats is WAY higher in the 2nd half of games, especially the 4th quarter than the first half.
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  • There are only a couple here with delusional insight about RW not wanting to score in the first half of games. You're going to have to deal with the fact that he plays jittery and tight until the 1st half two minute warning with a following lull until late 3rd quarter.

    It's not a matter of what RW wants. It's what he's proven to show what he is and isn't consistent at.
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  • That would be unfortunate.

    I am hoping that the problem is the issue with plays being called, coaching decisions and the like.

    If that is truly the reality with Wilson, and it isn't resolvable, then his value diminishes greatly.

    It won't matter if you score a bunch in the 4th if you have sanded your defense down by then. And it certainly will assure that a lot more games will be an uphill climb back.

    I am really hoping you are wrong on that one Vin. Because otherwise, we won't be able to switch from a defense focused win strategy to an offense focused one - and with our defense getting older/injured we will have to make that switch eventually.

    If Wilson literally cannot produce for a full half as a product of the kind of QB he is, that limits our chances greatly.

    BUT we seem to do just fine when we get behind in the 1st half and need to score, we do. So that seems to indicate it is a change in strategy/tactics that leads to the ability to score. Which seems to indicate that Wilson CAN be effective in both halves if given the right play calls to do so.
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  • Play calls could absolutely be a part of it, but that's absolutely not the cause of his accuracy issues in that same time frame.

    Another aspect that could augment tgis is the mantra of playing it safe and not turning the ball over, but I still SEE that he's inaccurate early in games and will freeze up. I think it's mostly mental, but being conservative is definitely part of it.

    I still go back to being fine with it under the current outdated contract contingent on us investing in plan B when it's up and get back to running the football so we don't have all our eggs in one basket.
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  • IndyHawk wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:Many know that I've been more critical of RW than almost anyone here, but in the current climate even with a backup QB winning the SB, you keep RW because his contract is and will continue to be ever more outdated.

    RW is a very, very good QB/Point Guard. I don't think he should be payed at the top of the list even if some other lesser guys are making more, but an outdated contract fits. Let him play it out and if you see a diamond in the rough of a QB then draft him mid to late round and if he sits for a couple years then so be it. If RW can improve further as a pocket aware passer then maybe you pay and stay and so be it. The outcome should be all business and no message board sentiment will matter, including my own.

    BYAH!

    Fine with the playing contract out but looking at it with more vision..
    His trade value will never be higher before that contract ends because
    the closer you get the less you will get.
    Maybe he doesn't get any better or improve squat so keep paying?
    As above stated did we win the SB with an elite QB?
    I feel like I'm still waiting to see that.

    You SEEN it in the second half of 2015, you've just chosen to ignore it.
    He'd proved THEN, that he can be elite when he gets SOME HELP from his O-Line, EVEN WITHOUT having the likes of Marshawn Lynch to help keep Defenses on their heels.
    Oh and, it was the DEFENSE that gave up all those points put up by Cam Newton in the playoffs, and it was Russell Wilson that scored the Seahawks back within reach of winning that game in the second half.
    NO Quarterback is going to do it all by himself, not even LORD Brady.
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  • Truth. It's amazing how the D gets a pass on a regular basis. Even when they blow leads at the end of the game, the 4th quarter etc. Somehow they are above the same criticism that Russ gets. Redskins game, he took them on a game winning drive....only to see the D crap the bed when the game was on the line. The D got flat out torched against the Texans, he lead the team to the victory, 34 of the 41 was on the offense. The D got torched quite a few times the last couple seasons. More time is spent (by some) making excuses for WHY he is so successful. Somehow it's only because of the D or the Running game or whatever. This run with has been the best we've seen as Hawks fans, bar none. Proud he is the QB of this team. Without him, we don't see either super bowl......(48 or 49).
    Down 16 with 5 minutes left in the NFC Championship, and who was on the sidelines telling everyone it's just 16 points? We're gonna' win this game etc. He flat out willed that team to another Super Bowl trip.
    Last edited by SoulfishHawk on Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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  • Saying Russell had nothing to do with that Super Bowl win speaks of low football knowledge. A blowout is a perfect storm of a defense that shuts the opposing team down, and an offense that is efficient. If the latter fails it’s a different ball game. Saying that any QB could have won that SuperBowl speaks of a bias towards Russell that confuses me.

    I don’t know if it’s a cultural thing, where the nation prefers tall, conventional Qbs that look and act a certain way. Or if it’s a perception thing purely based on the identity of our team. But the constant diminishment of Russell is really bizarre and lacking in all manners of fairness or reason. Russell is at minimum an A- Quarterback. And is a kicker away from being 11-5 despite our injuries. It’s a shame he’ll never be truly given the credit he deserves unlike most fans who praise their franchise Qb. Even many Philly fans understand it’s unlikely Foles can lead them back to another Super Bowl as a full time starter
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    Scorpion05
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  • Outstanding post Scorp. Winning doesn't need to LOOK a certain way. You either get it done or you don't. And he has been very successful. He's not THE reason, but a huge reason they have had such a winning culture since he came in to the league. The fascination by fans and media with his size, how he acts etc. is beyond ridiculous. I will never understand why people care so much with how he is, how he looks etc. Who gives a crap? Does he win or does he lose? That's what matters. I'm surprised people just don't come out and say "I want a quarterback to look the way I WANT him to." So many of the QB's that people drool over haven't had near the success that Russ has.
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    SoulfishHawk
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  • Scorpio, doesn't it feel like RW is being measured against a QB that doesn't exist or if he does, is viewed as a flawless platonic ideal in a vacuum.
    mrt144
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  • Scorpion05 wrote: It’s a shame he’ll never be truly given the credit he deserves unlike most fans who praise their franchise Qb.


    They will if he leaves or gets traded and we have to endure another 30-40 years of a revolving door of QB futility.
    If there is no Seahawk football in heaven, then we will never die.
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    Sgt. Largent
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  • TwistedHusky wrote: it isn't fair to point out all his comebacks and then dismiss he was a part of the reason for those comebacks.

    It sure as hell is...Pete has him on a play 'conservative' leash for three quarters before turning him loose, is a damn good reason..... The very fact that Wilson is even ABLE to make those extraordinary comeback plays to WIN those games, is golden.
    scutterhawk
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  • scutterhawk wrote:
    IndyHawk wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:Many know that I've been more critical of RW than almost anyone here, but in the current climate even with a backup QB winning the SB, you keep RW because his contract is and will continue to be ever more outdated.

    RW is a very, very good QB/Point Guard. I don't think he should be payed at the top of the list even if some other lesser guys are making more, but an outdated contract fits. Let him play it out and if you see a diamond in the rough of a QB then draft him mid to late round and if he sits for a couple years then so be it. If RW can improve further as a pocket aware passer then maybe you pay and stay and so be it. The outcome should be all business and no message board sentiment will matter, including my own.

    BYAH!

    Fine with the playing contract out but looking at it with more vision..
    His trade value will never be higher before that contract ends because
    the closer you get the less you will get.
    Maybe he doesn't get any better or improve squat so keep paying?
    As above stated did we win the SB with an elite QB?
    I feel like I'm still waiting to see that.

    You SEEN it in the second half of 2015, you've just chosen to ignore it.
    He'd proved THEN, that he can be elite when he gets SOME HELP from his O-Line, EVEN WITHOUT having the likes of Marshawn Lynch to help keep Defenses on their heels.
    Oh and, it was the DEFENSE that gave up all those points put up by Cam Newton in the playoffs, and it was Russell Wilson that scored the Seahawks back within reach of winning that game in the second half.
    NO Quarterback is going to do it all by himself, not even LORD Brady.

    8 games over the coarse of his career is absolutely not proof. Anyone can get a hot hand.
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    vin.couve12
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  • If you want to try and change the subject to shortcomings.of the defense and site RW's success, then keep that in perspective too.

    Hawks allowed the least points scored for years. RW didn't need to score as many points as other QBs for HIS success.

    Stupid redirects fail.
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    vin.couve12
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  • :34853_doh:

    Ok, we get it. Russ is an average QB who has nothing to do with the success of the Team. And I guess any average QB could have taken them to 2 Super Bowl's. Is that better? I would think the best QB in team history would get a little more respect from the "fans"
    But, clearly he will NEVER live up to what people expect from him. How could a guy who has been nothing but a class guy, a total leader and been incredibly successful be so hated? It makes zero sense. But have at it.
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    SoulfishHawk
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  • SoulfishHawk wrote::34853_doh:

    Ok, we get it. Russ is an average QB who has nothing to do with the success of the Team. And I guess any average QB could have taken them to 2 Super Bowl's. Is that better? I would think the best QB in team history would get a little more respect from the "fans"
    But, clearly he will NEVER live up to what people expect from him.


    Even better, if this is absolutely the case, let's just entertain it, how is the derision piled on RW for being who he is rather than the FO and PC seemingly being asleep at the wheel and letting the team deteriorate around their 'average' QB.
    mrt144
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  • And to do what he has done, with what he has had to work with? You gotta' be kidding me. If that doesn't show how great a player he is, not sure what people are looking at.
    Crap coaching from Bev and Cable, a horrific O Line and no running game.
    R.I.P. THE EDGAR, YOU WILL BE MISSED......
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    SoulfishHawk
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  • SoulfishHawk wrote:And to do what he has done, with what he has had to work with? You gotta' be kidding me. If that doesn't show how great a player he is, not sure what people are looking at.
    Crap coaching from Bev and Cable, a horrific O Line and no running game.


    Devil's Advocate: Don't you see the light brother, if RW was a better QB in a very nebulous sense, none of that would matter. Since RW can't paper over the flaws of the rest of the team, he doesn't deserve his salary considerations he currently enjoys. I have very many thoughts about what the Hawks should have done instead and if you subscribe to my podcast you'll hear all about that and more.
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