1st Round Pass Catchers

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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:52 am
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:59 pm
  • SDHawk wrote:I mentioned him twice. Once because he is 6'3. I'm sorry. Is he not? And once because of Robinson's screen game and YAC ability. I happen to think crabtree is a better comparison but crab is too small by your standards at just 6'1


    I can't agree with that comparison either to be fair. Crabtree is nothing like Robinson from what I've seen. He had amazing YAC ability too at Texas Tech, but the two players are/were just completely different. Crabtree hasn't got Robinson's speed and shiftiness, but he has the best hands of any receiver I've seen entering the NFL, amazing body control and competitiveness.

    Robinson for me is Percy Harvin-lite. He might be tall, but his game is predicated on getting it into his hands quickly and letting him do the rest. He's nowhere near as explosive as Harvin, but that's the style of receiver we're talking about here.

    Seattle, in fairness, has the elite of the elite in that category. They really need a possession receiver with big time physical upside.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:13 pm
  • bbsplitter wrote:
    theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
    bbsplitter wrote:And secondly, we have supposedly found our "franchise QB" and I would love it if the front office started placing more importance on protecting him.


    Two first round picks (including two in their first two drafts), extended the contract of a previous second round pick, spent big money on a guard that is no longer with the team, signed one of the most expensive offensive line coaches in the NFL.

    Seattle have put a lot of importance on the offensive line, and when Okung and Breno have been healthy, the line has done it's job.

    Wilson's development will not be highly impacted by a first round guard. It could easily be impacted with a top notch big receiver who can be a third down and red zone demon.

    Besides, we're talking about what looks like it could potentially be a legendary draft for receivers with as many as 5-6 going in round one. To put it bluntly, it's a crap year for guards in round one.


    Sooo.... Naturally that means that there will be more quality depth of WR's in the later rounds... right? And not so many Guards worth a crap later on? No, at first it didn't effect Wilsons development, now he is conveniently having a cold streak right after a long stretch of O line injuries and bad play. He is Mr. happy feet back there and a big factor is a crap line.

    Soooo.... We have put all this importance on the line in the past and if that's the case then...we just randomly stop doing that this year? You say they gave a guard "big money", well, take his contract and compare it to other "big money" guards on other teams. It's not really, and that's the point.


    You're merely buying into the usual cliche that offensive line is everything in the NFL. Fact is, it's massively overrated as a factor amongst journeyman analysts. Super Bowls have recently been won by teams with both excellent and perfectly average offensive lines. Quarterback is generally the consistent factor, and quarterbacks are arguably enhanced by wide receiver skill.

    And you don't have any way to prove that Wilson has been ruined by O-line play, nor does anyone else. He looked terrific in the pocket just six weeks ago. David Carr and Marc Bulger were crummy quarterbacks in their own right, quarterbacks whose sack rate followed them to other teams with better O-lines while the O-lines they left behind looked better with other QB's. They were not ruined by their offensive lines; they ruined themselves. The all-encompassing importance of the offensive line for the passing game is a tiresome myth that needs to be violently deflated to its proper size.

    I will throw something if they spend yet another first-rounder on a guard, especially with Michael Bowie looking very promising and our stable of red-zone targets being lacking.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:44 am
  • theENGLISHseahawk wrote:I think we need to consider what Seattle really needs here.

    I like Allen Robinson at Penn State. But he's at his best when you put the ball in his hands and let him run at defenders. He's tall -- 6-3 -- but he's around 205-210lbs and looks relatively skinny. For me he's a YAC specialist. And while he will make plays downfield, it's not his absolute greatest strength.

    The Seahawks have guys like that, and I fully expect them to find a way to re-sign Tate. Harvin isn't going anywhere before 2014 and will get a chance to bounce back.

    What the team needs is a big target -- 6-5/6-6 -- enormous frame. Someone who can box out defenders, compete physically in the air, provide a safety net and be a possession receiver with benefits (aka speed).

    This draft has three players who fit that bill. Mike Evans, who should be a top-15 pick and out of reach. He would be ideal, the absolute dream of a pick for this team. Kelvin Benjamin is not my favourite, but he has a ton of potential and maybe playing for an uber competitive team like Seattle will get a spark going there for him to work harder (and if that happens, watch out). And Brandon Coleman is the other one -- technique wise not the finished product but I've not seen a 6-6, 220lbs monster do what he can do before. He could be another Josh Gordon and his potential is ridiculous.

    A report via Dan Pompei last week had both Benjamin and Coleman listed as late first rounders via an anonymous NFL GM or scout (can't remember which).

    They are the three players, right now, I want to see this team targeting -- and I don't even like Benjamin that much. But I'd accept the pick because that's the need.


    Wouldn't Martavius Bryant also be a big target type? He was playing under the shadow of Watkins but seemed like Clemson's redzone threat.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:14 am
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:You're merely buying into the usual cliche that offensive line is everything in the NFL. Fact is, it's massively overrated as a factor amongst journeyman analysts. Super Bowls have recently been won by teams with both excellent and perfectly average offensive lines. Quarterback is generally the consistent factor, and quarterbacks are arguably enhanced by wide receiver skill.

    ...
    I will throw something if they spend yet another first-rounder on a guard, especially with Michael Bowie looking very promising and our stable of red-zone targets being lacking.


    Apologies up front. This reply kind of got away from me.

    I'm similarly dubious of the idea that a red zone big target is the panacea of this offense.

    Is it lacking? It is now. But Sidney Rice was that player for us and we didn't make use of him to a measurable degree in that fashion. Rice is faster than Benjamin or Evans. He's definitely got better hands and ball skills than either of those two.

    Seattle, whether by design or by QB choice, doesn't really attempt these 'jump ball' kinds of plays. We don't do it in the red zone and we don't do it between the 20s. It seems to me a classic case of transferring what we see as missing versus how this offense WANTS to operate.

    This offense is about ball control. It's about limiting the opponents' ability to score. Good defense, good running, lack of turnovers and efficiency are the mother's milk of that strategy.

    We have not wanted to or tried to use a big red zone target. Recall the ONE time we did that against Jacksonville. Wilson admitted it was an ad lib play where he didn't really want to throw it but -- well it was Jacksonville and we were curb stomping them and he said, "Ok I'll trust you". I don't think Wilson wants to throw jump balls. He doesn't do it. I don't think it fits with our blueprint for winning. It's risky and that goes against what we're about.

    Even if we got a Benjamin or a Coleman, I don't see Wilson trusting them to a degree that the big red zone target even manifests itself. Coleman or Benjamin are going to have to get open. Not just be taller. That's something other teams and QBs do. It's not our thing and I don't think adding more will make it our thing.

    Looking at the difference between last year and this year, it's obvious to me that the indicators would suggest we go a different route.

    Our rushing dropped by almost 20% per game over last years' production. Was some of that due to injuries on the line? Sure. But even at full strength, our rushing attack has been considerably less effective this year.

    Despite having the #1 defense in terms of turnovers forced, yards allowed and points allowed, our TOP ranked in the bottom third of the NFL. Even a no huddle pass happy offense should be in the top half of the league in TOP with a defense that dominant. If our defense was merely good in the 8-10th overall range our TOP would probably be in the bottom 3 of the entire NFL.

    This offense is predicated on a stout rushing attack, and we've not been achieving that. Regularly. Even at full strength. We dropped from 5th in yards per attempt down to 12th this year.

    The TOP difference is a big indicator for me. Because our efficiency overall for the year was fairly consistent. Our 3rd down conversions dropped significantly, our sacks allowed went from 23rd in Wilson's rookie year to dead last in the NFL this year. Our red zone TD scoring barely dropped at all over last year and was still in the top third of the NFL at 11th (down from 10th last year).

    I don't see red zone scoring (or the lack of it) as being an issue for us at all. Our scoring and our efficiency in scoring TDs when we get there remain virtually unchanged. In fact, our points per play and points per game increased over last year.

    What has changed, is our ability to move the ball in between the 20s to even get to the red zone in the first place. Our TOP and conversion rates are poor. And outside of scoring, that affects our primary goals of limiting the opponents' ability to score. It is one of the fundamental components of our overall strategy and it's floundering.

    We need chain movers. Pure and simple. If we're talking WR, then we need options that Wilson will actually pull the trigger on passes for. Not add options that Wilson is going to avoid due to our tenet of take care of the ball. Jump balls is NOT taking care of the ball. It's going to have virtually no impact for Seattle. For other NFL teams who are less risk averse, a big target is more appealing. But we simply don't call those passes and we don't throw them when the opportunity presents itself. Even when we have Rice on the field who is excellent at that kind of pass. Wilson is not Favre or Cutler and isn't willing to throw it up for grabs like that.

    It's easy to think that all we need is just one piece to score points and change everything. But the fact is, we have those pieces to score points and when we get into scoring position, we are scoring at a top five clip. Our problem is uglier and not as sexy and not a one player fix. We have to get into scoring position more frequently. We need to string first down conversions together at a better rate. We do more than fine when we get to where we need to be. We just don't get there enough.

    Even though I will concede that we aren't the 32nd rated pass pro line when assuming an average degree of attrition on the OL -- we are also very clearly in the bottom 5 of the league in that category. Which is doubly poor since we do possess a potent rushing attack and we use play action regularly which limits a pass rush by design. We should be immeasurably better at protecting Russell.

    But if we aren't going that route, then we need to get receiving options for Russell that he will actually throw to. Guys who can get open and be trusted to catch the ball. Guys that will fight for 50-50 balls. Quite honestly, other than Evans, I don't see that in Coleman's or Benjamin's repertoire. They are passive WRs that just don't attack the ball. And I think that will doom them when we grade them.

    I'm very skeptical that getting a big red zone target will have any effect for this offense. It's just that it goes against everything we know this team wants to do to win. And, I have to admit, that I don't see Coleman or Benjamin as being capable of being as good as Rice is. He brings so much more to the table than those two in receiving skills. He has the hops, the skills, the speed, the size. Rice is still the complete package outside of availability. And despite that, we don't do the jump ball thing when he's starting.

    The one thing I would concede, is Coleman looks like a red line target we'd use. His size and more importantly, his ramp up speed -- really looks like attributes that Russell can identify and make use of. Coleman has that extra gear when he gets 5-8 yards downfield where he can shake free of corners when he forces them to flip their hips. He has that ability to separate and shake free on a go route.

    But his other routes look awkward and he doesn't show really any quickness out of breaks. That limits about 2/3 of the route tree unless he can get better at that.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:21 am
  • ^I could see the argument that a big red zone target wouldn't be as useful on our team compared to others, although I don't really agree with it. ... But to say a 6 4 we would have no effect in the red Zone..... :pukeface:

    Imo Sidney rice is similar to "I'm Jimmy", used to being bigger and faster than everyone, and uses that to compensate for their lack of physicality. Tate fights for the ball ten times harder than Sidney rice, I just don't see that jump ball ability in him you and many others claim he has. Even if I'm wrong and he's not bad at jump balls, He's certainly not excellent at it, rice is severely overrated.

    You're right though, Seattle doesn't use the jump ball much, it could be too much risk like you said, or...
    Maybe we had money invested in to a guy that sucked at it? Maybe they've Been waiting for the right tools and the right time to implement this part of the passing attack. I do agree throwing jump balls to wrs like ours is risky, but a good big physical wr will not only fight to catch the ball, will also play defense when needed as well.

    This seems to be the Draft year for big wrs, and the need is there, so I guess this time next year we should have our answers.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:25 am
  • Attyla the Hawk wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:You're merely buying into the usual cliche that offensive line is everything in the NFL. Fact is, it's massively overrated as a factor amongst journeyman analysts. Super Bowls have recently been won by teams with both excellent and perfectly average offensive lines. Quarterback is generally the consistent factor, and quarterbacks are arguably enhanced by wide receiver skill.

    ...
    I will throw something if they spend yet another first-rounder on a guard, especially with Michael Bowie looking very promising and our stable of red-zone targets being lacking.


    Apologies up front. This reply kind of got away from me.

    I'm similarly dubious of the idea that a red zone big target is the panacea of this offense.

    Is it lacking? It is now. But Sidney Rice was that player for us and we didn't make use of him to a measurable degree in that fashion. Rice is faster than Benjamin or Evans. He's definitely got better hands and ball skills than either of those two.

    Seattle, whether by design or by QB choice, doesn't really attempt these 'jump ball' kinds of plays. We don't do it in the red zone and we don't do it between the 20s. It seems to me a classic case of transferring what we see as missing versus how this offense WANTS to operate.

    This offense is about ball control. It's about limiting the opponents' ability to score. Good defense, good running, lack of turnovers and efficiency are the mother's milk of that strategy.

    We have not wanted to or tried to use a big red zone target. Recall the ONE time we did that against Jacksonville. Wilson admitted it was an ad lib play where he didn't really want to throw it but -- well it was Jacksonville and we were curb stomping them and he said, "Ok I'll trust you". I don't think Wilson wants to throw jump balls. He doesn't do it. I don't think it fits with our blueprint for winning. It's risky and that goes against what we're about.

    Even if we got a Benjamin or a Coleman, I don't see Wilson trusting them to a degree that the big red zone target even manifests itself. Coleman or Benjamin are going to have to get open. Not just be taller. That's something other teams and QBs do. It's not our thing and I don't think adding more will make it our thing.

    Looking at the difference between last year and this year, it's obvious to me that the indicators would suggest we go a different route.

    Our rushing dropped by almost 20% per game over last years' production. Was some of that due to injuries on the line? Sure. But even at full strength, our rushing attack has been considerably less effective this year.

    Despite having the #1 defense in terms of turnovers forced, yards allowed and points allowed, our TOP ranked in the bottom third of the NFL. Even a no huddle pass happy offense should be in the top half of the league in TOP with a defense that dominant. If our defense was merely good in the 8-10th overall range our TOP would probably be in the bottom 3 of the entire NFL.

    This offense is predicated on a stout rushing attack, and we've not been achieving that. Regularly. Even at full strength. We dropped from 5th in yards per attempt down to 12th this year.

    The TOP difference is a big indicator for me. Because our efficiency overall for the year was fairly consistent. Our 3rd down conversions dropped significantly, our sacks allowed went from 23rd in Wilson's rookie year to dead last in the NFL this year. Our red zone TD scoring barely dropped at all over last year and was still in the top third of the NFL at 11th (down from 10th last year).

    I don't see red zone scoring (or the lack of it) as being an issue for us at all. Our scoring and our efficiency in scoring TDs when we get there remain virtually unchanged. In fact, our points per play and points per game increased over last year.

    What has changed, is our ability to move the ball in between the 20s to even get to the red zone in the first place. Our TOP and conversion rates are poor. And outside of scoring, that affects our primary goals of limiting the opponents' ability to score. It is one of the fundamental components of our overall strategy and it's floundering.

    We need chain movers. Pure and simple. If we're talking WR, then we need options that Wilson will actually pull the trigger on passes for. Not add options that Wilson is going to avoid due to our tenet of take care of the ball. Jump balls is NOT taking care of the ball. It's going to have virtually no impact for Seattle. For other NFL teams who are less risk averse, a big target is more appealing. But we simply don't call those passes and we don't throw them when the opportunity presents itself. Even when we have Rice on the field who is excellent at that kind of pass. Wilson is not Favre or Cutler and isn't willing to throw it up for grabs like that.

    It's easy to think that all we need is just one piece to score points and change everything. But the fact is, we have those pieces to score points and when we get into scoring position, we are scoring at a top five clip. Our problem is uglier and not as sexy and not a one player fix. We have to get into scoring position more frequently. We need to string first down conversions together at a better rate. We do more than fine when we get to where we need to be. We just don't get there enough.

    Even though I will concede that we aren't the 32nd rated pass pro line when assuming an average degree of attrition on the OL -- we are also very clearly in the bottom 5 of the league in that category. Which is doubly poor since we do possess a potent rushing attack and we use play action regularly which limits a pass rush by design. We should be immeasurably better at protecting Russell.

    But if we aren't going that route, then we need to get receiving options for Russell that he will actually throw to. Guys who can get open and be trusted to catch the ball. Guys that will fight for 50-50 balls. Quite honestly, other than Evans, I don't see that in Coleman's or Benjamin's repertoire. They are passive WRs that just don't attack the ball. And I think that will doom them when we grade them.

    I'm very skeptical that getting a big red zone target will have any effect for this offense. It's just that it goes against everything we know this team wants to do to win. And, I have to admit, that I don't see Coleman or Benjamin as being capable of being as good as Rice is. He brings so much more to the table than those two in receiving skills. He has the hops, the skills, the speed, the size. Rice is still the complete package outside of availability. And despite that, we don't do the jump ball thing when he's starting.

    The one thing I would concede, is Coleman looks like a red line target we'd use. His size and more importantly, his ramp up speed -- really looks like attributes that Russell can identify and make use of. Coleman has that extra gear when he gets 5-8 yards downfield where he can shake free of corners when he forces them to flip their hips. He has that ability to separate and shake free on a go route.

    But his other routes look awkward and he doesn't show really any quickness out of breaks. That limits about 2/3 of the route tree unless he can get better at that.


    This is why I want the best football player rather than the best football body. Our FO values players that can turn low risk plays into big results. I also suspect the FO covets players that can maximize Wilson's ability to extend plays. Robinson will fight to get open and come back to his QB when the play is dead.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:28 am
  • Mr.Hawkbrah wrote:Sidney rice, I just don't see that jump ball ability in him you and many others claim he has. Even if I'm wrong and he's not bad at jump balls, He's certainly not excellent at it, rice is severely overrated.
    .


    One example is that catch he made against the Jags on the pass RW lofted.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... 23-yard-TD

    I think you're wrong... Sidney Rice had a huge radius and was great at making catches away from the body. His issue was getting separation. These are similar issues with Coleman.

    KB doesnt have the best hands. As Attyla pointed out, a few drops can go a long ways towards destroying any goodwill the QB or coaching staff may have had in your size and potential for winning 50/50s.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:48 am
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    bbsplitter wrote:
    theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
    bbsplitter wrote:And secondly, we have supposedly found our "franchise QB" and I would love it if the front office started placing more importance on protecting him.


    Two first round picks (including two in their first two drafts), extended the contract of a previous second round pick, spent big money on a guard that is no longer with the team, signed one of the most expensive offensive line coaches in the NFL.

    Seattle have put a lot of importance on the offensive line, and when Okung and Breno have been healthy, the line has done it's job.

    Wilson's development will not be highly impacted by a first round guard. It could easily be impacted with a top notch big receiver who can be a third down and red zone demon.

    Besides, we're talking about what looks like it could potentially be a legendary draft for receivers with as many as 5-6 going in round one. To put it bluntly, it's a crap year for guards in round one.


    Sooo.... Naturally that means that there will be more quality depth of WR's in the later rounds... right? And not so many Guards worth a crap later on? No, at first it didn't effect Wilsons development, now he is conveniently having a cold streak right after a long stretch of O line injuries and bad play. He is Mr. happy feet back there and a big factor is a crap line.

    Soooo.... We have put all this importance on the line in the past and if that's the case then...we just randomly stop doing that this year? You say they gave a guard "big money", well, take his contract and compare it to other "big money" guards on other teams. It's not really, and that's the point.


    You're merely buying into the usual cliche that offensive line is everything in the NFL. Fact is, it's massively overrated as a factor amongst journeyman analysts. Super Bowls have recently been won by teams with both excellent and perfectly average offensive lines. Quarterback is generally the consistent factor, and quarterbacks are arguably enhanced by wide receiver skill.

    And you don't have any way to prove that Wilson has been ruined by O-line play, nor does anyone else. He looked terrific in the pocket just six weeks ago. David Carr and Marc Bulger were crummy quarterbacks in their own right, quarterbacks whose sack rate followed them to other teams with better O-lines while the O-lines they left behind looked better with other QB's. They were not ruined by their offensive lines; they ruined themselves. The all-encompassing importance of the offensive line for the passing game is a tiresome myth that needs to be violently deflated to its proper size.

    I will throw something if they spend yet another first-rounder on a guard, especially with Michael Bowie looking very promising and our stable of red-zone targets being lacking.


    And you are buying into the cliché that one big wide receiver will have that much more an impact than a solid o-line. Much less, in a system that under-utilizes wide receivers besides in blocking.

    Yet ANOTHER first round guard? You mean besides the ONE other time they have done that? So it doesn't work the first time you just stop trying?

    I'm not comprehending... Why the random comparison to horrible quarterbacks? I'm sure there are other examples I could randomly state to where a QB was harassed by a bad O-line and it stunts his development. Wilson has not been "ruined" by O-line as you say. But he has been influenced by them. Read any professionally written article about his "cold streak" right now and they all say its due to happy feet most likely caused by terrible o-line play.

    We HAVE play makers at wide receiver. Look at any game where Wilson actually has time to throw, and all the sudden the passing numbers go up exponentially. Could we use a big WR? Yeah sure, but IMO I don't think that's what we should go after first in the draft.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:51 am
  • SDHawk wrote:
    Mr.Hawkbrah wrote:Sidney rice, I just don't see that jump ball ability in him you and many others claim he has. Even if I'm wrong and he's not bad at jump balls, He's certainly not excellent at it, rice is severely overrated.
    .


    One example is that catch he made against the Jags on the pass RW lofted.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... 23-yard-TD

    I think you're wrong... Sidney Rice had a huge radius and was great at making catches away from the body. His issue was getting separation. These are similar issues with Coleman.

    KB doesnt have the best hands. As Attyla pointed out, a few drops can go a long ways towards destroying any goodwill the QB or coaching staff may have had in your size and potential for winning 50/50s.


    I agree with your first point, although its good to keep in mind they stuck with Kearse who had problems dropping passes, and I would say he has much less talent than KB.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:55 am
  • I think some are missing the point on this topic. It's not that the OL couldn't use an upgrade, it's the fact that the difference in quality of talent at WR and OL, from whom we will most likely be choosing from, is pretty major IMO. Think of it this way, are you willing to pass on a potential #1 WR or a bonafide #2 for a "starting quality RG or RT"?

    What bothers me about the "go OL no matter what route," who presents a clear/big upgrade to the current OL? Anybody, who can step in Day 1 and make a major difference on the OL, is more than likely not going to be picked at the end of R1. Those guys go early, always. Now, I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am saying it is extremely unlikely and I think it is foolhearted to pass on a superior talent at another position of big need, for the sake of "we need a better OL." That doesn't necessarily have to be at WR, but could a TE, DE, DT.

    The other part that seems to be missing in this debate, is that when Percy Harvin is not on the field, there is no defense that has remotely any fear of our WR corps. The more pressure you can put on the perimeter and down field, the easier life will be for the OL. Additionally, we do not have anybody who can dominate the Red Zone. This is where an athletic big target is a huge asset. Think about 1/3 of the RZ FGs turning into 7 points, instead of 3. How huge of a difference would that make? Remember, literally all of our losses (the past few years) are by 1 score. You can't tell me that wouldn't make a potentially huge difference.

    I think this is a great debate, but the point I'm trying to make is that those of us who would like to see a WR over OL in round 1, really aren't debating that the OL can't be upgraded. It's the simple idea that we'd be passing on superior talent that could help alleviate pressure on the OL. I don't think another OL is going to make our WR corps that much more dangerous.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:00 am
  • bbsplitter wrote:
    SDHawk wrote:
    Mr.Hawkbrah wrote:Sidney rice, I just don't see that jump ball ability in him you and many others claim he has. Even if I'm wrong and he's not bad at jump balls, He's certainly not excellent at it, rice is severely overrated.
    .


    One example is that catch he made against the Jags on the pass RW lofted.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... 23-yard-TD

    I think you're wrong... Sidney Rice had a huge radius and was great at making catches away from the body. His issue was getting separation. These are similar issues with Coleman.

    KB doesnt have the best hands. As Attyla pointed out, a few drops can go a long ways towards destroying any goodwill the QB or coaching staff may have had in your size and potential for winning 50/50s.


    I agree with your first point, although its good to keep in mind they stuck with Kearse who had problems dropping passes, and I would say he has much less talent than KB.


    Kearse only got thrust into a larger role out of necessity. If Rice were still healthy, despite Rice's inability to gain separation, Kearse would barely see the field. That said, Kearse did fix his drop issues with his lasik surgery. How do you fix KB's issues?
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:21 am
  • SDHawk wrote:
    Mr.Hawkbrah wrote:Sidney rice, I just don't see that jump ball ability in him you and many others claim he has. Even if I'm wrong and he's not bad at jump balls, He's certainly not excellent at it, rice is severely overrated.
    .


    One example is that catch he made against the Jags on the pass RW lofted.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... 23-yard-TD

    I think you're wrong... Sidney Rice had a huge radius and was great at making catches away from the body. His issue was getting separation. These are similar issues with Coleman.

    KB doesnt have the best hands. As Attyla pointed out, a few drops can go a long ways towards destroying any goodwill the QB or coaching staff may have had in your size and potential for winning 50/50s.


    I admit I was wrong the way I said it, Sidney rice does have the ability, in the sense that he's 6 4ish?...therefor his catch radius is big by default. But Being big or fast does not make you a good football player. If you are a professional wr you should have a big catch like that or 2 let's be honest it's what they are paid to Do. A few catches proves nothing, and a few drops mean nothing. He doesn't attack and fight for the ball, he's the type of wr who gets pushed around by a guy half his size then begs for a flag. Rice is weak in a literal sense.

    I'm not mad though, our franchise has been condemned to wr hell, the last time we had a stud was when joey galloway? Lol. Imo our standards are just extremely low and I can understand why that is. I can't think of a single NFL team that doesn't have a wr I'd trade sidney for straight across for.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:36 am
  • Mtjhoyas wrote:I think some are missing the point on this topic. It's not that the OL couldn't use an upgrade, it's the fact that the difference in quality of talent at WR and OL, from whom we will most likely be choosing from, is pretty major IMO. Think of it this way, are you willing to pass on a potential #1 WR or a bonafide #2 for a "starting quality RG or RT"?

    What bothers me about the "go OL no matter what route," who presents a clear/big upgrade to the current OL? Anybody, who can step in Day 1 and make a major difference on the OL, is more than likely not going to be picked at the end of R1. Those guys go early, always. Now, I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am saying it is extremely unlikely and I think it is foolhearted to pass on a superior talent at another position of big need, for the sake of "we need a better OL." That doesn't necessarily have to be at WR, but could a TE, DE, DT.

    The other part that seems to be missing in this debate, is that when Percy Harvin is not on the field, there is no defense that has remotely any fear of our WR corps. The more pressure you can put on the perimeter and down field, the easier life will be for the OL. Additionally, we do not have anybody who can dominate the Red Zone. This is where an athletic big target is a huge asset. Think about 1/3 of the RZ FGs turning into 7 points, instead of 3. How huge of a difference would that make? Remember, literally all of our losses (the past few years) are by 1 score. You can't tell me that wouldn't make a potentially huge difference.

    I think this is a great debate, but the point I'm trying to make is that those of us who would like to see a WR over OL in round 1, really aren't debating that the OL can't be upgraded. It's the simple idea that we'd be passing on superior talent that could help alleviate pressure on the OL. I don't think another OL is going to make our WR corps that much more dangerous.


    No one here has argued to draft an o-lineman in the 1st "no matter what". Right now I am in hoping to get use our first pick on a WR, mainly due to the fact that Bowie has surprisingly well at OG. But, I saying the OL can't be upgraded is a big stretch. Last I checked we didn't have five offensive lineman in the Pro Bowl. Sweezy at RG, IMO can be upgraded. We also have to assume it is highly unlikely that Breno will be re-signed.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:51 am
  • Fair enough. For me, it just boils down to the talent at WR being so much more superior to that on the OL, in the respective/projected draft slots and us realistically needing a huge upgrade at WR.

    cover-2 wrote:
    Mtjhoyas wrote:I think some are missing the point on this topic. It's not that the OL couldn't use an upgrade, it's the fact that the difference in quality of talent at WR and OL, from whom we will most likely be choosing from, is pretty major IMO. Think of it this way, are you willing to pass on a potential #1 WR or a bonafide #2 for a "starting quality RG or RT"?

    What bothers me about the "go OL no matter what route," who presents a clear/big upgrade to the current OL? Anybody, who can step in Day 1 and make a major difference on the OL, is more than likely not going to be picked at the end of R1. Those guys go early, always. Now, I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am saying it is extremely unlikely and I think it is foolhearted to pass on a superior talent at another position of big need, for the sake of "we need a better OL." That doesn't necessarily have to be at WR, but could a TE, DE, DT.

    The other part that seems to be missing in this debate, is that when Percy Harvin is not on the field, there is no defense that has remotely any fear of our WR corps. The more pressure you can put on the perimeter and down field, the easier life will be for the OL. Additionally, we do not have anybody who can dominate the Red Zone. This is where an athletic big target is a huge asset. Think about 1/3 of the RZ FGs turning into 7 points, instead of 3. How huge of a difference would that make? Remember, literally all of our losses (the past few years) are by 1 score. You can't tell me that wouldn't make a potentially huge difference.

    I think this is a great debate, but the point I'm trying to make is that those of us who would like to see a WR over OL in round 1, really aren't debating that the OL can't be upgraded. It's the simple idea that we'd be passing on superior talent that could help alleviate pressure on the OL. I don't think another OL is going to make our WR corps that much more dangerous.


    No one here has argued to draft an o-lineman in the 1st "no matter what". Right now I am in hoping to get use our first pick on a WR, mainly due to the fact that Bowie has surprisingly well at OG. But, I saying the OL can't be upgraded is a big stretch. Last I checked we didn't have five offensive lineman in the Pro Bowl. Sweezy at RG, IMO can be upgraded. We also have to assume it is highly unlikely that Breno will be re-signed.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:32 pm
  • Mtjhoyas wrote:Fair enough. For me, it just boils down to the talent at WR being so much more superior to that on the OL, in the respective/projected draft slots and us realistically needing a huge upgrade at WR.


    Agreed with needing help at WR. Come draft day I would like to see our front office and be proactive with our first pick if targeting a WR. Either move up a few spots if there is a WR they love...OR if the best available player when we pick is not an elite prospect & plays a position other than WR, then trade back a few spots and draft one of the WR they really like. OR take ASJ in the first.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:40 pm
  • Mtjhoyas wrote:I think some are missing the point on this topic. It's not that the OL couldn't use an upgrade, it's the fact that the difference in quality of talent at WR and OL, from whom we will most likely be choosing from, is pretty major IMO.


    I agree. The WR talent in this pool is too significant to ignore. Outside of the top three, I fully expect John and Pete to identify one of those 7-8 WRs in the 25-65 range that they like above the others and to take him.

    Mtjhoyas wrote:What bothers me about the "go OL no matter what route," who presents a clear/big upgrade to the current OL? Anybody, who can step in Day 1 and make a major difference on the OL, is more than likely not going to be picked at the end of R1. Those guys go early, always. Now, I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am saying it is extremely unlikely and I think it is foolhearted to pass on a superior talent at another position of big need, for the sake of "we need a better OL." That doesn't necessarily have to be at WR, but could a TE, DE, DT.


    I detailed in an earlier post, that assumption is simply not accurate or true at all for interior linemen. For Offensive tackles, it most definitely is. The hit rates on interior linemen in the 20-65 range is exceptional. Last years' crop was outstanding, with several teams acquiring their best OL talent on their roster in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. This year looks equally as deep, although without the alpha headliners of Warmack and Cooper. Neither of whom were even the best OGs taken in 2013.

    Mtjhoyas wrote:Additionally, we do not have anybody who can dominate the Red Zone. This is where an athletic big target is a huge asset. Think about 1/3 of the RZ FGs turning into 7 points, instead of 3. How huge of a difference would that make?


    Our red zone scoring currently ranks 11th in the league. That's % of red zone possessions converted to TDs. It's just outside the top ten. Our red zone opportunties per game is 12th. So it's still pretty good.

    Our plays per first down is average (15th). But our first downs per game is very weak (21st). We don't string together first downs well and our last 3 game average currently sits far below the yearly average for the worst team in the league (TB).

    Can we get better once we get there? Sure. But it's not the biggest issue we have by miles. It only FEELS like it because those FGs are easily recalled, whereas the 6 or 7 five play drives ending in punts don't register at all in our recollection.

    Mtjhoyas wrote:I think this is a great debate, but the point I'm trying to make is that those of us who would like to see a WR over OL in round 1, really aren't debating that the OL can't be upgraded. It's the simple idea that we'd be passing on superior talent that could help alleviate pressure on the OL. I don't think another OL is going to make our WR corps that much more dangerous.


    I believe so too. I don't see a lot to argue about with this. I don't believe fans that want OL upgrades are just 'OL or bust' in their opinion. There are real indicators that support the notion that our team in particular could benefit abnormally more from OL upgrades than other teams. Not the least of which, is the sack % which is worst in the league. I fully agree, that rate is bloated because of the QB who holds the ball longer than any other QB. But I would also argue, that is who Wilson is. He's not getting better at that. We accept that in our offensive scheme.

    Realistically, we're solving the same issue from different avenues. We can improve WRs so he doesn't hold it as long. Or we can improve our pass pro so he won't get the same pressure he does right now and can hold it longer. The end goal is the same. To allow Wilson to get rid of the ball cleanly before he has to pull it down and run.

    I would 100% agree, that we should get a player to do exactly that. I am ok with getting either if they help that. I'm not convinced it's merely a one sided solution. Improving both should be important. The reason I lean OL, is because the talent should be there for us in R1 and R2. Improving the OL however has the added benefit of improving our rushing attack. Which is significantly off the pace from where we should want it as a run first team. Getting a WR doesn't help our rushing attack at all outside of potentially getting more first downs and thus more plays.

    But nobody is saying we should get guys like that. They are all talking 'big bodied red zone target' types. Those don't help Wilson get the ball out better or improve our ability to keep drives alive. Those types have very narrow benefit and that's to our red zone scoring % which is already at a high level. Even if we get a red zone target that gets 9 TDs, our total improvement would only be between 3 and 4 TDs, because we already score a TD on 56% of our red zone possessions. That's like a .25 TD/game increase.

    If we don't add that, and simply improve one drive a game to a red zone possession, we're increasing our TDs/game by .56. That's significantly better. That shouldn't be hard to do, considering one more set of downs is 3 plays to try to get an explosive play. Which we are the best in the NFL at that. One or two extra plays pushes how many of those 37+ field goals into red zone possessions?

    If we want to talk WRs, then first and foremost I want to hear about how they are going to help our ability to sustain drives. To help our offense stay on the field and pound the defense an extra couple of plays each drive. With our rushing attack, if we can improve our TOP, then our ability to put teams away late in games is enhanced. Red zone targets don't help that. I want to get to the red zone more. Not do more once I get there.
    Last edited by Attyla the Hawk on Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:49 pm
  • Attyla the Hawk wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:You're merely buying into the usual cliche that offensive line is everything in the NFL. Fact is, it's massively overrated as a factor amongst journeyman analysts. Super Bowls have recently been won by teams with both excellent and perfectly average offensive lines. Quarterback is generally the consistent factor, and quarterbacks are arguably enhanced by wide receiver skill.

    ...
    I will throw something if they spend yet another first-rounder on a guard, especially with Michael Bowie looking very promising and our stable of red-zone targets being lacking.


    Apologies up front. This reply kind of got away from me.

    I'm similarly dubious of the idea that a red zone big target is the panacea of this offense.

    Is it lacking? It is now. But Sidney Rice was that player for us and we didn't make use of him to a measurable degree in that fashion. Rice is faster than Benjamin or Evans. He's definitely got better hands and ball skills than either of those two.

    Seattle, whether by design or by QB choice, doesn't really attempt these 'jump ball' kinds of plays. We don't do it in the red zone and we don't do it between the 20s. It seems to me a classic case of transferring what we see as missing versus how this offense WANTS to operate.

    This offense is about ball control. It's about limiting the opponents' ability to score. Good defense, good running, lack of turnovers and efficiency are the mother's milk of that strategy.

    We have not wanted to or tried to use a big red zone target. Recall the ONE time we did that against Jacksonville. Wilson admitted it was an ad lib play where he didn't really want to throw it but -- well it was Jacksonville and we were curb stomping them and he said, "Ok I'll trust you". I don't think Wilson wants to throw jump balls. He doesn't do it. I don't think it fits with our blueprint for winning. It's risky and that goes against what we're about.

    Even if we got a Benjamin or a Coleman, I don't see Wilson trusting them to a degree that the big red zone target even manifests itself. Coleman or Benjamin are going to have to get open. Not just be taller. That's something other teams and QBs do. It's not our thing and I don't think adding more will make it our thing.

    Looking at the difference between last year and this year, it's obvious to me that the indicators would suggest we go a different route.

    Our rushing dropped by almost 20% per game over last years' production. Was some of that due to injuries on the line? Sure. But even at full strength, our rushing attack has been considerably less effective this year.

    Despite having the #1 defense in terms of turnovers forced, yards allowed and points allowed, our TOP ranked in the bottom third of the NFL. Even a no huddle pass happy offense should be in the top half of the league in TOP with a defense that dominant. If our defense was merely good in the 8-10th overall range our TOP would probably be in the bottom 3 of the entire NFL.

    This offense is predicated on a stout rushing attack, and we've not been achieving that. Regularly. Even at full strength. We dropped from 5th in yards per attempt down to 12th this year.

    The TOP difference is a big indicator for me. Because our efficiency overall for the year was fairly consistent. Our 3rd down conversions dropped significantly, our sacks allowed went from 23rd in Wilson's rookie year to dead last in the NFL this year. Our red zone TD scoring barely dropped at all over last year and was still in the top third of the NFL at 11th (down from 10th last year).

    I don't see red zone scoring (or the lack of it) as being an issue for us at all. Our scoring and our efficiency in scoring TDs when we get there remain virtually unchanged. In fact, our points per play and points per game increased over last year.

    What has changed, is our ability to move the ball in between the 20s to even get to the red zone in the first place. Our TOP and conversion rates are poor. And outside of scoring, that affects our primary goals of limiting the opponents' ability to score. It is one of the fundamental components of our overall strategy and it's floundering.

    We need chain movers. Pure and simple. If we're talking WR, then we need options that Wilson will actually pull the trigger on passes for. Not add options that Wilson is going to avoid due to our tenet of take care of the ball. Jump balls is NOT taking care of the ball. It's going to have virtually no impact for Seattle. For other NFL teams who are less risk averse, a big target is more appealing. But we simply don't call those passes and we don't throw them when the opportunity presents itself. Even when we have Rice on the field who is excellent at that kind of pass. Wilson is not Favre or Cutler and isn't willing to throw it up for grabs like that.

    It's easy to think that all we need is just one piece to score points and change everything. But the fact is, we have those pieces to score points and when we get into scoring position, we are scoring at a top five clip. Our problem is uglier and not as sexy and not a one player fix. We have to get into scoring position more frequently. We need to string first down conversions together at a better rate. We do more than fine when we get to where we need to be. We just don't get there enough.

    Even though I will concede that we aren't the 32nd rated pass pro line when assuming an average degree of attrition on the OL -- we are also very clearly in the bottom 5 of the league in that category. Which is doubly poor since we do possess a potent rushing attack and we use play action regularly which limits a pass rush by design. We should be immeasurably better at protecting Russell.

    But if we aren't going that route, then we need to get receiving options for Russell that he will actually throw to. Guys who can get open and be trusted to catch the ball. Guys that will fight for 50-50 balls. Quite honestly, other than Evans, I don't see that in Coleman's or Benjamin's repertoire. They are passive WRs that just don't attack the ball. And I think that will doom them when we grade them.

    I'm very skeptical that getting a big red zone target will have any effect for this offense. It's just that it goes against everything we know this team wants to do to win. And, I have to admit, that I don't see Coleman or Benjamin as being capable of being as good as Rice is. He brings so much more to the table than those two in receiving skills. He has the hops, the skills, the speed, the size. Rice is still the complete package outside of availability. And despite that, we don't do the jump ball thing when he's starting.

    The one thing I would concede, is Coleman looks like a red line target we'd use. His size and more importantly, his ramp up speed -- really looks like attributes that Russell can identify and make use of. Coleman has that extra gear when he gets 5-8 yards downfield where he can shake free of corners when he forces them to flip their hips. He has that ability to separate and shake free on a go route.

    But his other routes look awkward and he doesn't show really any quickness out of breaks. That limits about 2/3 of the route tree unless he can get better at that.


    I disagree that we aren't a jump ball team. The last two years the Seahawks have thrown more jump balls than we ever did the entire time when Hasselbeck was our QB. A lot of those jump balls that Wilson has thrown is because a play has broken down. IMO Wilson is willing to put the ball up for his WR to make a play even in tight coverage. While the last few games it seems as though Russell Wilson has been more conservative with throwing jump balls, so maybe he is being told to cut back on making those throws. Maybe the recent trend (last few games) of being more conservative when throwing the ball has some thinking that we don't throw the jump ball and don't need a big WR.

    Throwing a fade route, in the red zone and/or goal line, to a 5ft 10in Golden Tate and 5-10 Doug Baldwin is not ideal and doesn't give Russell Wilson the best chance to succeed when throwing in the red zone. Now there are a good handful of 6-2 or taller WR in this draft that can fill that roll.

    Attyla the Hawk wrote:They are all talking 'big bodied red zone target' types. Those don't help Wilson get the ball out better or improve our ability to keep drives alive. Those types have very narrow benefit and that's to our red zone scoring % which is already at a high level. Even if we get a red zone target that gets 9 TDs, our total improvement would only be between 3 and 4 TDs, because we already score a TD on 56% of our red zone possessions. That's like a .25 TD/game increase.


    We rank 12th in the NFL in scoring TD's in the red zone, which is good, but there is a lot of room for improvement.
    Last edited by cover-2 on Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:19 pm
  • Attyla - Great post. Appreciate the reasoned/rational dialogue.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:33 pm
  • Saw Benjamin at #15 on a mock today.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:59 pm
  • Attyla the Hawk wrote:
    jhern87 wrote:... Is everyone assuming Marqise Lee will be gone as well? Because I think it's Watkins / Lee >>> Every other WR in this class.


    Yes, pretty much that. He's expected to go in the late teens to early 20s. He could drop, but I rather doubt that. He'd have to pass by the Chiefs and Panthers. Those teams probably have WR as their #1 need. Should we win against SF, then they'd be a third team that would pick before us likely to take Lee.

    One player to watch closely is Jordan Matthews at Mobile. I'm sure there will be Senior Bowl threads to come. Seattle is well known for cementing their evaluations of players there. Matthews is a good prospect and worthy of late round 1 consideration.

    He likely will very much intrigue Seattle as he's a very heady player who has an established hunger to get better. He should impress in person when they talk to him. His first response to getting a Senior Bowl invite: He requested tape on the Senior Bowl corners to study in the weeks before practices. He's got talent and he does the little things.


    Jordan Matthews is an interesting choice that addresses Seahawk criteria >>>> http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl-prospect-focus-jordan-matthews-160400738--nfl.html
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:09 pm
  • Id like for Seattle to get KB, Wilson with rice seemed comfortable, so imagine how comfortable he would be with someone else tall like that. He doesn't necessarily have to be a speed daemon but if he's past those harsh marks for a 1st down, with RW throwing ball up to high point where he can only get them, and the only way to defend him out be to cause a PI it seems its in our favor. I know there's flaws to this but just play with for a second. It then moves out chains pretty steadily. We could use him for redzone's as well. And the ONE thing Seattle EXCELS AT compared to any other team in the NFL, is turning raw talent into something. Pete's GREAT at finding what his plays strengths are and developing them.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:09 pm
  • Good response, Attyla, I learned something.

    But I disagree that jump balls aren't a part of this offense. Haven't you seen how many one-on-one sideline throws and dramatic deep Baldwin catches comprise our offensive highlights? Wilson does throw them. Our receivers have been specifically selected for a specific subset of skills, including catch radius, vertical, and ability to box out the sideline. They're not good at everything, but at certain things they're pretty good. That makes me doubt that jump balls are incompatible with our offensive philosophy. Wilson honestly doesn't seem to be afraid of throwing them on principle despite his distinctly conservative nature, because he doesn't double-clutch on them consistently. You will see him throw when it comes to the sideline. Which is one thing that leads me to believe that his real problem is just not trusting the middle of the field because he can't see.

    We call a few more passes than our stats show. Some of them vanish into his scrambling stats because he doesn't throw, but we do call them. It needs to be investigated why he doesn't throw, and while I suspect it's his height, I also suspect it's the lack of separation. That doesn't encourage me to draft for O-line first in a draft skewed very heavily towards WR talent that even John Schneider would be intrigued by.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:38 pm
  • SDHawk wrote:
    bbsplitter wrote:
    SDHawk wrote:
    Mr.Hawkbrah wrote:Sidney rice, I just don't see that jump ball ability in him you and many others claim he has. Even if I'm wrong and he's not bad at jump balls, He's certainly not excellent at it, rice is severely overrated.
    .


    One example is that catch he made against the Jags on the pass RW lofted.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... 23-yard-TD

    I think you're wrong... Sidney Rice had a huge radius and was great at making catches away from the body. His issue was getting separation. These are similar issues with Coleman.

    KB doesnt have the best hands. As Attyla pointed out, a few drops can go a long ways towards destroying any goodwill the QB or coaching staff may have had in your size and potential for winning 50/50s.


    I agree with your first point, although its good to keep in mind they stuck with Kearse who had problems dropping passes, and I would say he has much less talent than KB.


    Kearse only got thrust into a larger role out of necessity. If Rice were still healthy, despite Rice's inability to gain separation, Kearse would barely see the field. That said, Kearse did fix his drop issues with his lasik surgery. How do you fix KB's issues?


    Rice's inablility to separate? The times I've seen Rice catch, he seems to be able to separate on a consistent basis. He probably has the surest hands of all receivers on the team too.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:50 pm
  • hawkfan68 wrote:
    Rice's inablility to separate? The times I've seen Rice catch, he seems to be able to separate on a consistent basis. He probably has the surest hands of all receivers on the team too.


    You must have poor short term memory. That was the biggest knock on Sidney Rice this season before his (re) injury. The thinking was that Rice's knee wasn't 100% but that he was close to coming around.
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Re: 1st Round Pass Catchers
Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:07 pm
  • SDHawk wrote:
    hawkfan68 wrote:
    Rice's inablility to separate? The times I've seen Rice catch, he seems to be able to separate on a consistent basis. He probably has the surest hands of all receivers on the team too.


    You must have poor short term memory. That was the biggest knock on Sidney Rice this season before his (re) injury. The thinking was that Rice's knee wasn't 100% but that he was close to coming around.


    No short term memory....It depends on what your definition of separation is. He separates enough from his defender to provide a window for a throw and catch. That's fine separation for me. Wilson doesn't have a problem throwing to him when he's got a DB covering him and for the most part Rice makes those catches. Does he have burner speed? No. However he gets enough separation to make catches, i.e. New England TD last year, Arizona Cardinals game TD this year (one in AZ).
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