Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues

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  • I have read all of your comparos and such, and I find them interesting. If you want to go from a maturity/mental standpoint, he's no Ryan Leaf. I don't see him as a Tommie Frazier either, because Frazier was the calmest man I've ever seen play the game. As far as skillset, he does run like Tommie though. Personality wise, they are much different. But Frazier may have been the best college QB to ever play the game (when you're going off of wins and leadership... Frazier is WAY up there... if you didn't see him play, then don't go looking at his stats and knocking me for that statement... Frazier was GREAT regardless of "combine" type of stats, arm strength, and so on).

    Charlie Ward is a guy that is very similar to Manziel in his skill set and athleticism. Charlie would have gotten a good shot in today's NFL and it was always funny to me when he was playing for the Knicks and referred to weekly as the best QB in New York (which was likely true considering who was starting for the Giants and Jets). Ward was an amazing talent, an amazing leader, and to me was what Russell Wilson was in college. A consumate leader, a workout warrior, a gym rat, a winner that did everything it took at all times and one of the finest athletes to ever play the sport.

    But on the side of Manziel that people are kind of picking at... he doesn't remind me of Tebow (he does in his ability to gain yards with his feet, but does it in an entirely different fashion, he finds lanes and busts through them, much like our own Russell Wilson, or like Charlie used to do).

    If I had to pick one guy that he just REMINDS me of in his demeanor, personality, and general attitude toward others and things in general, it would have to be Cade McNown. Not sure how many of you remember him and his exploits at UCLA, but they are eerily similar. A young kid that came in and just basically told everybody what the score was all the time, hung out at the playboy mansion, talked a LOT, threw a nice ball, moved around well, had kind of an elitist attitude (and why not? He was a GREAT college QB). He was smallish though and a lot of his game didn't translate very well, and a big part of that was his work ethic, which wasn't that great as he got by on talent. I think Manziel has a work ethic, but in a lot of ways he's having sort of a McNown-ish run with the media and fans this offseason after really coming in and blowing the doors off of everybody last year.

    Do I think Manziel can play in the NFL? For sure. I have no doubt. Do I think he needs to work on some things to become his very best? YES. Absolutely. Could he become the next Russ Wilson? That's entirely up to one person, and that's Johnny. He can be as good as he wants to be, and it was obvious before last season that he wanted to put in the work to be great. But is he satisfied with where he ended up and will just sort of ride out his college career now? I saw a kid do that. David Greene. We saw how that worked out. He just never improved as a college player, when he really showed a lot of "moxie" or whatever you want to call it early in his college career, but just never made the strides and leaps and bounds.

    Everybody loves to use the Tom Brady comparison, and they just as much love to use the Alex Smith comparisons when talking about QB's. Honestly... Johnny Manziel could become either guy. He had a year last year that was eeril similar to Smith's junior year at Utah. He surprised the national media (not the locals though) and he steamrolled everybody, all the way through a BCS game. He ran a similar offense and was dominant. But he was so much more mature in how he handled everything, and was about the same age as Manziel is now at that point. Smith graduated from college in a ridiculously short amount of time (like in the 18 months range according to some people I know well... he was so far ahead he could have graduated within a year of stepping foot on campus if he wanted to). Manziel however doesn't even want to step foot on campus, because to him it seems like a bother. He's just using college as the minor leagues, and that's fine. More power to him. Cam Newton did it and it worked out ok for him. Smith and Robert Griffin handled things a lot differently. And Brady was the anti-McNown/Greene because he improved every year, totally immersed himself in learning and improving at college and now is the chance where Manziel has an opportunity to step out of the shadow of every single guy I mentioned (and I realize it was WAY too many, but I've seen a lot of guys play and picked out different parts of their game and overall makeup to try to figure out which way another guy will go). Manziel can rewrite the record books. He can break every one of Tebow's records. He can be as great of a passer as Colt McCoy was in college (and like what he's done as a pro or not, McCoy was an absolutely legendary college QB and always will be). He could become like Troy Aikman in his ability to just win (Aikman was thought of as a prima donna and a "too good for his teammates, media, and everybody else" as well... and anybody who remembers the mess with him and Oklahoma and UCLA knows what I'm talking about).

    The future hasn't been written yet. If it were at this point in somebody's life, Cade McNown would be wrapping up a hall of fame career, David Greene would have been a solid NFL QB who won more than he lost, Tommie Frazier would have been the first QB to run a spread successfully in the NFL and ushered its use into the NFL 20 years earlier than it was, Charlie Ward would have been starting for the Jets and they might have actually won, Tom Brady would have been a practice squad player and bounce around the NFL as a journeyman backup like Josh McCown, Alex Smith would have dominated the NFL and won a few Superbowls by now, and Troy Aikman would have been seen as a malcontent and Jeff George'd himself out of the league being known as a pompous ass.

    It will certainly be interesting to watch. If I had to bet? I'd say that Manziel will put in the work to be the best he can possibly be and will get a chance to start for an NFL team and they'll see if he can handle it. Teams NEED to do this at this point because of how much salary QB's are making. So he'll get his shot. Reading this mish-mash I wrote though I find it really a drag that Charlie Ward never gave it a go (or was told he'd never really get a chance) and that Tommie Frazier had the blood clot issues that ended his career before anybody even saw if a QB with his skillset had a place in the NFL in those days (He would now... those days, not really). But it sure would have been nice to at least find out. I hated Nebraska, but Tommie Frazier put on a clinic every week of what it took to lead a team to greatness. There's a lot of Tommie in Russell Wilson and that's why I'm damn glad he's on our team. :)
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  • Well he did beat up a guy last summer, maybe mentally he is the next Ryan Leaf.
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  • Ryan Leaf never beat anybody up. The guy was a sissy. He had less muscle definition than most of us on this board. Leaf was a drug addict. It became very apparent as he became a terrible flake and then spent the remainder of his life trying to be put in positions where he had access to drugs. He stole them from his players when he was a coach. That wasn't a "first time mixup". This is somebody who has had a problem for a long long time. He claimed it was because of the hand injury. That hand injury happened while he was in San Diego.

    I remember when he signed with the Hawks and he had a hole in his hand where the bones were shattered and the ligaments just sort of blew up. I've torn that same area up playing baseball (about 1/100 as bad as his injury was) and I can say the pain is absolutely excruciating. My bones that meet up at the wrist and end of forearm are still pointing up funny and the wrist still hurts fifteen years after tearing all of the cartilage and snapping the end of the bone off on a swing. So I can understand a bit of how much pain he was in. Then the doctors goofed it when trying to fix it. Massive intractable pain can fry a person's brain. They just lose it completely. I've been there. Luckily I haven't turned into an addict, but I know that the pain makes me act like a complete jerk.

    I think Leaf's issues were much deeper than Johnny Manziel's obvious "big man on campus with little man syndrome".
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  • I think Johnny Manziel is much more like Fran Tarkenton than Russell Wilson is. First, Tarkenton was competitive to a fault and was well known for being impatient or rude to people. Checkbox, Manziel. Tarkenton was a reckless scrambler who often played out of control. Checkbox, Manziel. Tarkenton had a mildly unconventional delivery and was not afraid to "Favre" it when he didn't have the time or luxury to set his feet, but unlike most QBs, those passes actually worked. Checkbox, Manziel.

    In the current NFL, Wilson comes the closest to Tarkenton so that's why I've said that if you want the next Wilson, draft Manziel. But I think if we are talking all QBs all time- Tarkenton pretty much nails it.
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  • Watched Texas A&M vs LSU from last year today.

    Really don't like seeing him changing hands, throwing left handed straight to a wide open cornerback who drops the ball. That was an error-strewn game. Not all bad because he made a few plays. But the guy takes so many chances. If we're making any comparison to Wilson -- I think that's where they are a million miles apart. Wilson's chances seem so much more calculated... he minimises risk and plays the percentages while still maintaining an explosive playmaking quality. Manziel looks like a chancer. He also hasn't got the arm talent Wilson has. I don't know. I'm completely unconvinced he's going to go as early as some people think. He's without doubt the player I'll look forward to watching the most in college football this year... he's box office viewing. But I'm not sure I'd be drafting him anywhere near round one for my football team. Teddy Bridgewater is on a different level for me.
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  • He strikes me as a more dynamic, athletic and instinctual Doug Flutie. We'll never know what Flutie couldve been.

    Farrar nails JM's tao understanding of open space.
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  • theENGLISHseahawk wrote:Watched Texas A&M vs LSU from last year today.

    Really don't like seeing him changing hands, throwing left handed straight to a wide open cornerback who drops the ball. That was an error-strewn game. Not all bad because he made a few plays. But the guy takes so many chances. If we're making any comparison to Wilson -- I think that's where they are a million miles apart. Wilson's chances seem so much more calculated... he minimises risk and plays the percentages while still maintaining an explosive playmaking quality. Manziel looks like a chancer. He also hasn't got the arm talent Wilson has. I don't know. I'm completely unconvinced he's going to go as early as some people think. He's without doubt the player I'll look forward to watching the most in college football this year... he's box office viewing. But I'm not sure I'd be drafting him anywhere near round one for my football team. Teddy Bridgewater is on a different level for me.



    I would expect JM to become "smarter" with taking chances as he matures.

    Are you comparing JM to Wilson as a pro, or when he was at NC in '08-'09?
    And this post is not directed at anyone personally.
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  • Manziel was on the NIke campus today in Beaverton as a coach at the Elite 11/The Opening camp. One of the "in the know" guys at my Ducks board had this to say about him:

    To start, there's a sh!t load of talent on that field. Before I get into the HS QB's, I gotta tell you about the college players coachng. First off, Johnny Football looks like a walk on FB, I shit you not. I was blown away when I figured out who he was. I honestly thought," Man, that FB looking guy can spin it. Who in the hell is that?". He looks much bigger on TV..... Seriously though, you wouldn't believe how short Manziel is.
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  • He looks 5'11" and change on TV to me. Skinny too. Wouldn't be surprised if he added some serious muscle this offseason though. He needs it.

    Gonna be really fun to see where he gets drafted.
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  • He probably owes Russell Wilson a fruit basket or a thank you card for showing that short Qb's can have success in the league (although Bree's already proved that, imo).
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  • DTexHawk wrote:
    I would expect JM to become "smarter" with taking chances as he matures.

    Are you comparing JM to Wilson as a pro, or when he was at NC in '08-'09?


    Wilson in college.

    In 2008 Russell Wilson as a first year starter threw one interception compared to 21 total touchdowns. The highest number of turnovers he had was 2010 when he had 14 to go with 37 total touchdowns... and that was a very inconsistent and frustrating NC State outfit that year. When placed in a strong contender, he reverted back to only four picks and 39 touchdowns.

    Throughout his career he showed the ability to make strong decisions and limit turnovers. It seems to me to be a natural thing with him - almost certainly down to the legendary work ethic and preparation we've come to know since he arrived in Seattle. And it's something Manziel doesn't flash to the same extent. That's not to say he can't continue to develop in that area or dedicate himself to Wilson's extent, but then you probably take away a significant part of his game. He is by nature a chancer. The lack of control on his ability to improvise makes him a better player. I think him not knowing what he's going to do sometimes makes him difficult to plan against. He doesn't have amazing arm talent and he's not a difference maker as a pure pocket passer. It's his ability to move around, extend plays and break off the improbable that makes him very effective IMO. The big question for me is whether that translates. Is he 'that' good at it to break conventions in the NFL in the same way Wilson did with his height. I'm not sure he is.

    If I needed a QB next year and it was a toss up between Bridgewater and Manziel, I would take Bridgewater every time.
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  • Seems like peoples opinion on this board is Wilson somehow opened the door for short QBs in the NFL.IMO the fact still stands,height matters.What Wilson,Brees or Flutie accomplished is even more amazing because they overcame those obstacles.
    What Wilson is doing only proves Wilson can do it at 5 10.Wilson is 1 of a kind.
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  • theENGLISHseahawk wrote:If true... oh dear...

    http://www.goodbullhunting.com/2013/7/1 ... nning-camp


    If true, maybe this can be a wake-up call.

    Certainly better than a DUI or something along those lines.
    And this post is not directed at anyone personally.
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  • Wakeup call? He keeps doing the same stuff over and over. Like I said before, if he was a safety or LB or some other position player doing this crap, I would still draft him without a doubt. But being the leader of your team, it's a gamble at this point.
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  • Report: Manziel sent home from Manning camp

    Texas A&M redshirt sophomore QB Johnny Manziel was sent home from the Manning Passing Academy, according to Yard Barker.
    The report states Archie Manning sent Manziel home for a number of reasons. The Aggie quarterback apparently showed up late on Saturday after spending "a night on the town" on Friday. "Camp officials told local media that Manziel 'is sick' and was no longer at the camp," the report states. "But our source claims he was kicked out." The site updated their original post, adding Manziel missed multiple meetings on Saturday morning without informing anyone of his absence. "Most people at the camp assume he simply slept through them."


    Sounds like a winner. Im interested to see how the Manziel lovers spin this. :0190l: :34853_doh: :thirishdrinkers:
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  • kearly wrote:I think Johnny Manziel is much more like Fran Tarkenton than Russell Wilson is. First, Tarkenton was competitive to a fault and was well known for being impatient or rude to people. Checkbox, Manziel. Tarkenton was a reckless scrambler who often played out of control. Checkbox, Manziel. Tarkenton had a mildly unconventional delivery and was not afraid to "Favre" it when he didn't have the time or luxury to set his feet, but unlike most QBs, those passes actually worked. Checkbox, Manziel.

    In the current NFL, Wilson comes the closest to Tarkenton so that's why I've said that if you want the next Wilson, draft Manziel. But I think if we are talking all QBs all time- Tarkenton pretty much nails it.


    :thirishdrinkers: :sarcasm_off: but wanted to quote it for the future.

    theENGLISHseahawk wrote:Watched Texas A&M vs LSU from last year today.

    Really don't like seeing him changing hands, throwing left handed straight to a wide open cornerback who drops the ball. That was an error-strewn game. Not all bad because he made a few plays. But the guy takes so many chances. If we're making any comparison to Wilson -- I think that's where they are a million miles apart. Wilson's chances seem so much more calculated... he minimises risk and plays the percentages while still maintaining an explosive playmaking quality. Manziel looks like a chancer. He also hasn't got the arm talent Wilson has. I don't know. I'm completely unconvinced he's going to go as early as some people think. He's without doubt the player I'll look forward to watching the most in college football this year... he's box office viewing. But I'm not sure I'd be drafting him anywhere near round one for my football team. Teddy Bridgewater is on a different level for me.


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  • CPHawk wrote:Wakeup call? He keeps doing the same stuff over and over. Like I said before, if he was a safety or LB or some other position player doing this crap, I would still draft him without a doubt. But being the leader of your team, it's a gamble at this point.


    D-Tex is the resident A&M fan. And unfortunately just like that guy who liked Notre Dame and the other guy who liked Texas, will always put a positive slant on a piece of possible news like this.

    Although I think, "at least it wasn't a DUI" suggests some kind of league table for 'bad things'. Maybe if he ever gets a DUI we can be reassured he didn't go on a Grand Theft Auto style rampage, or that he didn't instigate a nuclear war.

    Rest assured NFL teams will know exactly why he left that camp by next year, for better or worse.
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  • It interests me that despite Manziel's removal from the Manning training camp, then NFL Network continues to show him throwing and working with the kids. However, I also noticed that the host asked Mike Mayock about him, and Mayock mentioned how he had no idea where Manziel was for a few days.

    Also, I think after this year, now that the Heisman has also put this kid in the limelight, and thus under more intense scrutiny, he's going to see his stock drop - possibly precipitously. If that's the case, I can see him staying at A&M for another year after this one to rebuild his image. If he puts 2 and 2 together.
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  • My point with the wakeup call was that teenagers, particularly those who have received "favored" treatment while growing up, don't listen to authority. Whether it is their hs teachers, coaches, local sheriff, etc...

    Maybe with this action by the Mannings (who carry a little more weight as far as the next level) will get Manziel to grow up and start focusing on what it takes to get to the next level.

    As to this:

    "will always put a positive slant on a piece of possible news like this."

    when you posted it, it was still just a rumor by a internet blog, which is why it was "a piece of possible news".
    And this post is not directed at anyone personally.
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  • He plead guilty to a 2012 misdemeanor today. Just thought I would keep things updated. Tebow 2.0 with issues.
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  • This kid seems like he can't handle the fame. I'm with T-Sizzle, I'd avoid this guy at all costs. He's going to be compared to Russell Wilson a lot just because they're both short and its laughable. Wilson is mature, this kid is not
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  • JSeahawks wrote:He probably owes Russell Wilson a fruit basket or a thank you card for showing that short Qb's can have success in the league (although Bree's already proved that, imo).


    Short QB's with unbelievable poise, maturity and work ethic. Not to mention mechanics and a killer arm.

    Manziel doesn't seem to possess any of these things.
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  • Hasselbeck wrote:
    JSeahawks wrote:He probably owes Russell Wilson a fruit basket or a thank you card for showing that short Qb's can have success in the league (although Bree's already proved that, imo).


    Short QB's with unbelievable poise, maturity and work ethic. Not to mention mechanics and a killer arm.

    Manziel doesn't seem to possess any of these things.

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  • Sounds like that wasn't the only issue he had at the camp. Reports are coming out that he had a hard time being on time to anything there. Something tells me he's not a first guy to the facility everyday type.
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  • CPHawk wrote:Sounds like that wasn't the only issue he had at the camp. Reports are coming out that he had a hard time being on time to anything there. Something tells me he's not a first guy to the facility everyday type.


    Which is an underrated part of Wilson's game, at least among the national media.

    Wilson has a lot of unnatural physical characteristics for his height (big hands, strong arm etc) but he just might be the hardest working guy in the NFL and that counts for something. He knows he'll always face at least some kind of battle due to the height, and he's compensating. And it's probably because he works so hard behind the scenes that he's so comfortable with the spotlight on him. He's so prepared, nothing can faze him.

    Manziel might not have to match Wilson's unbelievable work ethic but he has to give it a go. He isn't going to be able to 'wing it' in the NFL, running around like his hair is on fire. Hard to disagree with those saying he gives off the vibe of a guy who is struggling to handle being in the limelight.
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  • After having the character of player like RW, it's hard to look at a guy like Manziel and say "this is the guy I want running my team."
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  • Johny Football goes #1 or #2 (Bridgewater might go ahead of him) next season. There is no doubt.
    The kid has a natural instinct for playing QB. Everything he does so far comes very easy to him. The rest is coach-able. Johny football is a joy to watch. Simply an amazing talent.
    He is a marketing machine for whoever drafts him next season (Jacksonville, Eagles, Cardinals, Cleveland, Oakland, ...). Why would any team pass on him? He has made Texas AM lots of $$$ already.
    Regardless of what his off the field issues are, he has the right genes...Drafting a QB #1 is no longer a financial heavy weight on teams because of the new CBA. There is NO WAY he slips pass #2 in the draft next season, no way.
    We have all been 20, we have all partied, had a few beers, faked IDs, done crazy things, .. etc. This is all media garbage. They should leave the kid alone. He can afford the $200k parties. He can afford expensive cars, what's wrong with that?
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  • joeseahawks wrote:Johny Football goes #1 or #2 (Bridgewater might go ahead of him) next season. There is no doubt.
    The kid has a natural instinct for playing QB. Everything he does so far comes very easy to him. The rest is coach-able. Johny football is a joy to watch. Simply an amazing talent.
    He is a marketing machine for whoever drafts him next season (Jacksonville, Eagles, Cardinals, Cleveland, Oakland, ...). Why would any team pass on him? He has made Texas AM lots of $$$ already.
    Regardless of what his off the field issues are, he has the right genes...Drafting a QB #1 is no longer a financial heavy weight on teams because of the new CBA. There is NO WAY he slips pass #2 in the draft next season, no way.
    We have all been 20, we have all partied, had a few beers, faked IDs, done crazy things, .. etc. This is all media garbage. They should leave the kid alone. He can afford the $200k parties. He can afford expensive cars, what's wrong with that?



    Apologies Joe, but this is one of the worst posts I've ever read in the draft forum.

    1. What exactly is a natural instinct for playing QB? I would argue a natural instinct would mean you're a competent pocket passer (much like Andrew Luck) or that at least people would list passing and accuracy as your #1 feature. Manziel's greatest quality is without doubt his ability to improvise and not his ability in the pocket. If anything, I'd argue Manziel goes against the grain. I think writing off his issues (and there are a few) as "coachable" is a little too optimistic. Mechanically he is not a sound QB.

    2. Making money is no reason to draft a QB. I mean, nobody with any shred of credibility will draft a player based on financial reasons. You name check Jacksonville as a team that would draft him for the cash. If the Jags were really that bothered about making money, Tim Tebow would be their current starter.

    3. You can't just write off his issues by saying he has the right genes. Having the right genes means absolutely nothing if you aren't responsible and prepared to make the most of any natural talent you might have.

    4. I think the argument that he's "just being 20" is ridiculous. Yes, we've all been 20 and done crazy things. It's also not a valid excuse for doing something extremely dumb. For starters I (like most 20 year olds) was never a prospective NFL QB intending to earn a million dollar contract via the draft. Manziel has a lot more to lose than 99.9% of the other college kids in the world. When I went out and got drunk at University and missed a lecture the next day, I wasn't attending the Manning Passing Academy. And prior to major events in my life that are perhaps comparable to attending the MPA (work opportunities, interviews etc) like the vast majority of people I'm not out until 4am and then sleeping in the next day. If he'd partied and missed a regular class at A&M I could stomach this argument. But this wasn't just another day for Manziel. He HAD to know what was at stake here. Getting sent home from the MPA is not acceptable and makes him look like a dufus with no control. It's not just another college lecture he's missing after a long night of fun. Quite rightly, his judgement and maturity is being called into question.

    5. If we're making excuses for him aged 20, when does it stop? He's not a teenager anymore. Time to grow up and get some responsibility.

    6. Being able to afford 200K parties and expensive cars does not justify acting like a jack ass and will not wash with NFL front offices.

    7. If you can afford 200K parties, why not just go to New Orleans another time when you're not at the Manning Passing Academy? Talk about making life difficult for yourself.

    8. Teddy Bridgewater isn't just on another level mechanically, but he comes minus all of the character headaches we're starting to see with Manziel. There's only room for one QB in the top two because there's no way on earth Jadeveon Clowney makes it outside of the top couple of picks. I have no doubt what so ever Bridgewater will be the first QB taken next year, even at this early stage.

    Thankfully for Manziel he has a year of football to move on from this latest episode and get some momentum back. I hope for his sake he manages to do just that.
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  • I see him as Tebow / Ryan Leaf, drops to 3rd or 4th round because he's an idiot with an attitude.
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  • Again, I think people are trying to compare the kid to some type of machine. Every single player has some types of "Flaws". Remember when Cam Newton was in the draft? People kept saying "Well, he stole computers in college, he took money from people, he is this, he can't throw, he is not smart, he can't read defenses ... blah blah blah" and he was drafted #1, and he IS a franchise QB.
    The upside for Johny Football is too high for any team like Jacksonville to pass on him. Some other teams will stink this season and they will most likely decide to take a look at Johnny Manziel, who will bring instant hype with him.
    When I say "Natural QB" I mean things that a Brett Favre did. You don't teach that anywhere. Manziel can feel the pocket, he can make defenders miss almost effortlessly, he can create out of nothing , he can buy time for his receivers to get open, ... and I can go on and on and on. He can learn accuracy, he can add to arm strength. But what he already has available to him ... most QBs can't learn.
    Maziel will go #1 or #2.
    This kid dissected the best College Football Team without turnover ... and as a freshman ... come on.
    And please, stop comparing him to Tebow ... This is not the same thing.
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  • joeseahawks wrote:Again, I think people are trying to compare the kid to some type of machine. Every single player has some types of "Flaws". Remember when Cam Newton was in the draft? People kept saying "Well, he stole computers in college, he took money from people, he is this, he can't throw, he is not smart, he can't read defenses ... blah blah blah" and he was drafted #1, and he IS a franchise QB.
    The upside for Johny Football is too high for any team like Jacksonville to pass on him. Some other teams will stink this season and they will most likely decide to take a look at Johnny Manziel, who will bring instant hype with him.
    When I say "Natural QB" I mean things that a Brett Favre did. You don't teach that anywhere. Manziel can feel the pocket, he can make defenders miss almost effortlessly, he can create out of nothing , he can buy time for his receivers to get open, ... and I can go on and on and on. He can learn accuracy, he can add to arm strength. But what he already has available to him ... most QBs can't learn.
    Maziel will go #1 or #2.
    This kid dissected the best College Football Team without turnover ... and as a freshman ... come on.
    And please, stop comparing him to Tebow ... This is not the same thing.


    So expecting him not to stay out in New Orleans until 4am and attend the Manning Passing Academy on time as scheduled is unrealistic? That's thinking he's a machine?

    Nonsense.

    Likewise the comparison to Brett Favre. He was able to improvise and do a lot of crazy stuff, but he was fundamentally brilliant too. He was a prototype player in many ways on a technical and physical level. Manziel is not.

    As for learning accuracy and arm strength... I wish it was that easy.

    Did you go to Texas A&M by any chance?
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  • Lots of us (and the media) spend too much time over-analyzing these kids. I understand, it is feeding into talk radio, fans, forums and all. It generates ratings, it makes all of use sound like GMs and such ... and in a few years, we will all come and say "I told you so"...
    If he entered last year's draft, Johnny Football would have gone to KC or some team would have traded to get him very high. J M. is a play maker. Those don't grow on trees. With the emphasis placed on QB Mobility today, I don't see how a team with no Franchise QB like the Jaguars could pass on such a player. Yes, he got late for a meeting ... and what?
    I'm not saying those things don't matter, all I'm saying is they are blown out of proportion.
    Regardless of his flaws, he has some pretty darn good on the field performances under his belt already. He beat the best team in College football (with plenty of NFL ready players) and destroyed another one in their bowl game. He might have some flaws in his game or even his character, but seriously who doesn't?

    JM will be fine and he will be a top 2 pick next year's draft. No doubt about it.
    And NO I didn't go to A & M.
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    theENGLISHseahawk wrote:I've written a piece on this tonight, for anyone who still cares about this story: http://seahawksdraftblog.com/johnny-man ... -an-excuse
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  • Not sure what everyone sees in this kid. He's fleet of foot, but runs with a certain character I can only call "flamboyant". His mechanics stink like hot garbage on asphalt. His throws look almost like disco dance moves.
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  • Anyone mature enough to use the "I'm a 20 year old kid" excuse is to mature to use the "I'm a 20 year old kid" excuse. It's indication that you are aware of the flaws in your actions but just don't give enough of a damn to do anything but use a lame excuse to cover your actions. 20 year olds act like idiots because they don't know any better.

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  • I'm REALLY pulling for this kid. His instincts and tao understanding of "sandlot" ball is pretty damn fun to watch. In a society and culture full of phony faux-outrage over any individuality, I sure and hell hope he succeeds.

    He's a 20yo Heisman Winner in Texas. I actually find it refreshing he's out drinking and banging chicks. Its what 20yo's should do.

    There's an inherent hypocrisy here; "stay in school, enjoy college, but don't act like a college student, Johnny!". He's not a pro yet, he can do what he wants.

    I was a huge partier and VIP room blow n women type in my 20's. I owned it and made no apologies for it in my corporate life. The other VP's and execs knew and joked about it. No one cared because I did good work and advanced to roles it takes most 20 years to reach. I'm not trying to attention whore, honestly, its just there's more than one way to accomplish things in life. Be yourself, but do your job. If its natural enough of a gig, you'll succeed.
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  • pehawk wrote:I was a huge partier and VIP room blow n women type in my 20's. I owned it and made no apologies for it in my corporate life. The other VP's and execs knew and joked about it. No one cared because I did good work and advanced to roles it takes most 20 years to reach.



    And if you were missing meetings, sleeping in or getting sent home, they probably would've felt differently... no?
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  • pehawk wrote:I'm REALLY pulling for this kid. His instincts and tao understanding of "sandlot" ball is pretty damn fun to watch. In a society and culture full of phony faux-outrage over any individuality, I sure and hell hope he succeeds.

    He's a 20yo Heisman Winner in Texas. I actually find it refreshing he's out drinking and banging chicks. Its what 20yo's should do.

    There's an inherent hypocrisy here; "stay in school, enjoy college, but don't act like a college student, Johnny!". He's not a pro yet, he can do what he wants.

    I was a huge partier and VIP room blow n women type in my 20's. I owned it and made no apologies for it in my corporate life. The other VP's and execs knew and joked about it. No one cared because I did good work and advanced to roles it takes most 20 years to reach. I'm not trying to attention whore, honestly, its just there's more than one way to accomplish things in life. Be yourself, but do your job. If its natural enough of a gig, you'll succeed.


    You're looking at this situation from the vantage point of a survivor. What about all the twentysomethings who partied hardy and didn't make it like you did? What you've done is only applicable here if it's the norm, and I'd very much guess it's not. Manziel is not avoiding the types of mistakes that have led other highly touted college players to fail.

    Further reading about survivor bias, if you're curious: http://youarenotsosmart.com/2013/05/23/ ... ship-bias/
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  • To English; Manziel fell asleep at Manning's Fruity Academy. He hasn't let it slip over on Saturdays (yet).

    To 83, its coming from a "natural talent" perspective. JM's genius, seriously genius, on the football field. Maybe if it comes so easy to him, he won't have to work as hard. JJ Watt didn't have to work as hard as Craig Terrell, because Watt's genius at his job.

    I'm pulling for him, and that's totally personal biased.
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  • To pehawk - he went on an all night bender, didn't show up the next day and was booted out. Allegedly.
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  • To English (you smartass) - yeah, I know, and it made me happy. He's Jonny Football, he doesn't need to kiss the ring of Downs Syndrome haircut or Eli Koopa Troopa.

    We'll see how it plays out. I think he can do it.
    Last edited by pehawk on Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • theENGLISHseahawk wrote:To pehawk - he went on an all night bender, didn't show up the next day and was booted out. Allegedly.


    Congratulations on your new prince!
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  • JSeahawks wrote:
    theENGLISHseahawk wrote:To pehawk - he went on an all night bender, didn't show up the next day and was booted out. Allegedly.


    Congratulations on your new prince!


    Sweetie, let’s not go that far.

    It's just NOT your Papa's NFL anymore. Teams aren't running the WCO. Until its stopped, QB's are going to thrive on athleticism just as much as smarts. Now, maybe it's a fad like the run and shoot? We'll see.

    And, in this new era of NFL QB's utilizing athleticism, Manziel maybe the most natural I've seen so far. While it may look frenetic, I'd bet to him everything's moving at a snails pace. He's genius...really...
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  • pehawk wrote:
    JSeahawks wrote:
    theENGLISHseahawk wrote:To pehawk - he went on an all night bender, didn't show up the next day and was booted out. Allegedly.


    Congratulations on your new prince!


    Sweetie, let’s not go that far.

    It's just NOT your Papa's NFL anymore. Teams aren't running the WCO. Until its stopped, QB's are going to thrive on athleticism just as much as smarts. Now, maybe it's a fad like the run and shoot? We'll see.

    And, in this new era of NFL QB's utilizing athleticism, Manziel maybe the most natural I've seen so far. While it may look frenetic, I'd bet to him everything's moving at a snails pace. He's genius...really...


    Hey, I love Manziel on the field. I'm just worried he has too much Leinart in him. I'd love to see him succeed though. I was just congratulating English on the royal birth today. I'm sure he's lighting up cigars and such.
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  • Oh, jeez, I'm dumb.
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  • Why are College players constantly compared to NFL standards? In the NFL, it is their job to go out and play. They get a paycheck and contract for it. These kids in College are students first ... They are not getting paid for this. They need a life too.
    The media has invested billions into these college contracts, the kids aren't getting paid, now they want the kids to behave like if they are getting paid these billions? I say screw the media. Let the kids be kids. When they sign their professional contracts, now their bosses can tell them how to run their lives.
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  • I received a full scholarship to college and worked my ass off every day, every semester. Saying that these kids get nothing is the most moronic thing I may have ever read. What if there wasn't college football? What would Johnny Manziel receive? So.... he would be playing in the NFL minor leagues like other former high schoolers? OH WAIT, there is no such system. They receive a FREE education (Johnny F. decided not to attend classes on campus), and saying, "Well he's 20" is just stupid. Plenty of 20 year olds are intelligent and well behaved, especially when they are on a scholarship that asks them to follow through on something. THAT IS a contract.

    Do you know how much tuition, books, and housing would cost at most of these schools? I once looked into transferring to the U of Miami and tuition was around $50,000 a year. Seriously. Do those kids "Do it for free?"

    Johnny is receiving massive exposure, has an entire marketing department behind him at the school (and the school has an equipment contract and television deals) that also help to boost his celebrity. Then he has trademarked things and is selling his own merchandise. NONE of that would have been possible had he not gotten a scholarship and the massive freebies from Texas A&M. He also wouldn't have been able to hit the buffet circuit and get so fat this offseason if it weren't for his publicity machine that is behind him. He's getting PLENTY out of this bargain, and he was rich to start with. Playing the game where the kid should be excused from any sense of responsibility or expectation of behavior is nutty.
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  • SharkHawk wrote:I received a full scholarship to college and worked my ass off every day, every semester. Saying that these kids get nothing is the most moronic thing I may have ever read. What if there wasn't college football? What would Johnny Manziel receive? So.... he would be playing in the NFL minor leagues like other former high schoolers? OH WAIT, there is no such system. They receive a FREE education (Johnny F. decided not to attend classes on campus), and saying, "Well he's 20" is just stupid. Plenty of 20 year olds are intelligent and well behaved, especially when they are on a scholarship that asks them to follow through on something. THAT IS a contract.

    Do you know how much tuition, books, and housing would cost at most of these schools? I once looked into transferring to the U of Miami and tuition was around $50,000 a year. Seriously. Do those kids "Do it for free?"

    Johnny is receiving massive exposure, has an entire marketing department behind him at the school (and the school has an equipment contract and television deals) that also help to boost his celebrity. Then he has trademarked things and is selling his own merchandise. NONE of that would have been possible had he not gotten a scholarship and the massive freebies from Texas A&M. He also wouldn't have been able to hit the buffet circuit and get so fat this offseason if it weren't for his publicity machine that is behind him. He's getting PLENTY out of this bargain, and he was rich to start with. Playing the game where the kid should be excused from any sense of responsibility or expectation of behavior is nutty.


    If there was no football, Maziel could have gone into the family business and been know as "Johnny cockfighter." :stirthepot:
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