Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues

sturg78

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Dudes crazy young. Not a lost cause yet, hopefully he pulls himself up, by his own accord or with help. In sure he wouldn't be the only kid to do stuff like this and still succeed.
 

CPHawk

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sturg78":qbfkxjy6 said:
Dudes crazy young. Not a lost cause yet, hopefully he pulls himself up, by his own accord or with help. In sure he wouldn't be the only kid to do stuff like this and still succeed.


Your right, but that said its totally diffrent when a corner or RB does the stuff he is doing and when a Qb does it. He's held to a much higher standard, fair or not.
 

pnwhawk25

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Manziel had a great Redshirt Freshman campaign. I think this year will be a different story as defenses have had time to prepare for Manziel and Texas A&M. Additionally, his off field exploits as well as his blowups in practice leave you wondering where he stands mentally going into this season. This latest incident indicates he is all but ready to jump from College Station to the NFL.
 

Sarlacc83

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Kid's what, 20? He's going to do some really stupid stuff from time to time. I'll let him mature a little before writing him off just yet.
 

kearly

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You can nitpick Manziel, but for the most part he has a good NFL skillset. Even though he had a mountain of rushing yards last season, he's also the kind of QB that knows how to scramble to extend plays for completions. He checked through progressions with incredible ease for a freshman QB. He's a very similar player to Russell Wilson, except that Wilson had better technique, better athleticism, and ran in a compact manner compared to Manziel who runs very upright (but so does Kaepernick, and nobody cares about that flaw in his case).

Manziel has incredible leadership talent and intangibles, but I would never compare him to Tebow since Manziel is not at all lacking as a passer. His arm is probably just average, but he has great touch and accuracy on his passes, and he's very smart with his decision making. His throwing motion isn't picture perfect, but throwing motion is one of the most over-scrutinized aspects in scouting, IMO. He's a natural QB, even if he's only six feet tall and plays with a throwback style.

Most quarterbacks struggle with the fundamentals and achieve success in spurts, even in the NFL I'd say that's true for at least half the starting QBs. Manziel didn't, even as a college freshman. He's an artist out there. Sometimes it takes a relaxed eye to see the obvious.

I'm very curious to see where Manziel goes. I could see him going top 15 or I could see him going 5th round depending on how the pre-draft hype machine spins. All I know is, if he's there on day 3 in next year's draft, Seattle better not pass on the chance to get him.
 

JSeahawks

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I'm totally torn on Manziel. There are times when I think he's the best prospect in awhile if in the right system, then there are other times where I think he has no chance to be an NFL qb.

I love his leadership skills on the field, but I absolutely hate his persona off the field for a QB. Seems very Matt Leinartish. In college he can get by on his athleticism, but that wont always work in the NFL. Will he have the work ethic to work on his craft like a Russell Wilson does? Hopefully like others have said its just immaturity from being young.

I think he'll be either a really high boom, or a really big bust, I don't see much middle ground for him.
 

CPHawk

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I bet he goes to the combine and measures in at 5'11 195 with 4.65 speed.
 

kearly

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JSeahawks":16zbot1i said:
I'm totally torn on Manziel. There are times when I think he's the best prospect in awhile if in the right system, then there are other times where I think he has no chance to be an NFL qb.

I love his leadership skills on the field, but I absolutely hate his persona off the field for a QB. Seems very Matt Leinartish. In college he can get by on his athleticism, but that wont always work in the NFL. Will he have the work ethic to work on his craft like a Russell Wilson does? Hopefully like others have said its just immaturity from being young.

I think he'll be either a really high boom, or a really big bust, I don't see much middle ground for him.

Personally, I don't think Manziel comes across as immature, I just think he hates being a mega celebrity (which I find 100% understandable). Personally, I'd much rather have a QB who hates being a celebrity than one who throws himself $200,000 birthday parties or does Superman celebrations after running for 8 yards on 3rd and 10. I think he's just someone that loves football but doesn't love some of the things that come with success.

CPHawk":16zbot1i said:
I bet he goes to the combine and measures in at 5'11 195 with 4.65 speed.

I think he'll probably add some weight for the combine, but otherwise I think those numbers are very close. He looks like a 4.65-4.70 type athlete to my eye, but it's very hard to judge speed on tape with any kind of precision.
 

Tical21

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Tebow? I've tried reaching many directions and can't put that one together. In what way is comparable to Tebow? Because they've both won the Heisman? I haven't seen quite enough yet of him to make a true guess as to his NFL future, but he has the right throwing motion. He does run too often for my likings, but he's faster than 4.65. I'll take 4.52 or faster in the pool. Looks like he's accurate and has a natural feel for when to fire and when to use touch. I do agree that he has to mature. He isn't handling the fame very well. What happens if he gets drafted by a team with a big spotlight and tough critics? I think there is some concern there. But as a redshirt frosh the kid won the Heisman. He's got to be doing something right.

Tebow? Huh?
 

JSeahawks

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The guy that he reminds me of is Tommie Frazier from Nebraska back in the 90's.

Frazier didn't have very good throwing stats but I think in todays modern day spread offenses he would have put up much better passing numbers then he did in the old wishbone, true option offense.
 

Stoned Cold

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Jeff Garcia 2.0. Some of you guys are comical with your "analysis". Garcia played against us for a couple years. Must be new Seahawk fans.
 

kearly

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Doug Farrar had an article on scouting Manziel today.

On a side note, there's one thing about Manziel that hasn't been talked about almost at all but I think is pretty important. His running instincts give him elite elusiveness in the open field, and he has good balance and resilience as a runner too. As a runner, he's a bit like Golden Tate. He runs upright but with good balance, is resistant to tacklers who try to push him down instead of wrapping up, and (this is the part almost nobody talks about ->) he has a very special ability to run right at a tackler and have them badly whiff on the tackle anyway. It's as if he knows the future and knows the exact spot and time where he needs to be to make tacklers over-pursue him. I've never seen a runner run around defenders with a smaller travel arc than Manziel's. It's as if he just runs right by people, and he does this over and over and over.
 

theENGLISHseahawk

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The best way to describe Manziel came from a Rams fan I spoke to in April... where he basically said he plays the game like he's saying "Oh shit, Oh shit, Oh shit..." in his head after the snap. It's a kind of frantic, winging it style that's unconventional, exciting, but loaded with question marks.

He can improvise which is the single most underrated quality in a quarterback IMO. But at the same time I wonder how effective he can be when tasked to just get the ball to A, B or C quickly and accurately. If option A isn't there is he going to start roaming around in the pocket instead of going to B? Is he capable of just sitting there and running through his progressions? Because from what I've seen of him, he's beyond impatient. RGIII and Wilson are incredible in terms of athleticism, arm talent and intelligence so you tolerate it when they start roaming around. They also do the simple things brilliantly. Can Manziel get anywhere close to that same level to make him equally effective in those breakdown situations? I'm not sure, yet.

And putting Tweets out complaining about your life in his position suggests he needs to get a grip. I know kids his age all make mistakes and he'll learn. There's a lot of expectation and pressure on his shoulders. But come on. If he's even thinking, "poor me" as a Heisman Trophy winner from a wealthy family who has to deal with being hugely popular on campus... that bothers me. Luck, Wilson and RGIII appeared to thrive in their high pressure environments.
 

Subzero717

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^ I get what you are saying about Luck, Wilson and Griffin but I think the attention and all that might be a little more at College Station. Its a smaller place and its Texas. Griffin may have faced something remotely similar IDK. Baylor was irellevant before him so I couldn't really say. I'm not saying he shoild get a total pass but the circimastnces are a little different. That is not to say any of the other three would have acted the way he has because I don't believe that at all.
 

formido

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kearly":vbx4b4ce said:
...he has a very special ability to run right at a tackler and have them badly whiff on the tackle anyway. It's as if he knows the future and knows the exact spot and time where he needs to be to make tacklers over-pursue him. I've never seen a runner run around defenders with a smaller travel arc than Manziel's. It's as if he just runs right by people, and he does this over and over and over.

I rewatched some of his running highlights and I see exactly what you're talking about. I've seen it before. When I was a teenager, the best athlete at my school, Brian Beecroft, had the same ability and he could do it dribbling full speed on a basketball court too. It was literally unstoppable and made you feel completely helpless every time. It was like magic. If you watch Manziel closely on those runs where he goes right by a guy like they're standing still, he does a super subtle, super quick eurostep where he fakes like he's going outside, plants and goes just inside. Doing this while maintaing top forward speed makes it impossible to react to in time, it just freezes you.

Here's three from the highlight videos I just watched, but these weren't the only ones, my gif creator just crapped out on some of them:

OK5iZBg

and:

RdLI73m

and:

QmfKELk

This is a good example of his general technique:

FFxzYf2
 

formido

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kearly":1q9e0y7o said:
As a runner, he's a bit like Golden Tate. He runs upright but with good balance, is resistant to tacklers who try to push him down instead of wrapping up...

I think running upright probably is what gives him such good balance, like with Golden Tate. Awhile ago I read an older European soccer player mentioning, in regards to practicing man-beaters, that most people don't realize what an advantage it is to maintain balance at all times. He said that he had been able to maintain an edge throughout his career over more athletically gifted players by following this principle. Adrian Peterson runs with a very balanced, upright posture. In the NBA, Steve Nash is always balanced and is able to beat faster players with ease.
 

formido

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theENGLISHseahawk":ord1bgve said:
The best way to describe Manziel came from a Rams fan I spoke to in April... where he basically said he plays the game like he's saying "Oh shit, Oh shit, Oh shit..." in his head after the snap. It's a kind of frantic, winging it style that's unconventional, exciting, but loaded with question marks.

I think it might come off that way because we're not used to athleticism that comes in a certain package. Manziel is legitimately fast, just without long limbs and grace so it looks a little herky jerky. There's nothing inherently more suspect about it, though. When he gets into open space he runs away from college DBs. His 40 is going to be around Russell Wilson's, 4.5 or so. He's not outsmarting people, he's an athlete.

Reminds me of a TrueHoop article on ESPN this year after Jeremy Lin scored 38 on San Antonio. The writer basically said the exact same thing, Lin was running around like a chicken with his head cut off, maybe trying harder than other players, and he wouldn't be able to keep it up. Fact is, at Lin's draft combine tests, he had a faster first step than Derrick Rose and John Wall, as well as faster 3/4 court speed. The Rocket's GM has accelerometers on their jerseys and Lin's the fastest player they've ever measured. He's not trying harder he's just more athletic. Manziel's not frantic, he's athletic.

Manziel has another thing going for him: Giant hands. Russell Wilson just said in his interview this week that he thinks QBs have to have big hands. To prevent fumbles, make accurate passes, get perfect spin on the ball, and to be able to control the ball in rain and other inclement weather (e.g., late in the season), the bigger the better. Wilson said his hands are the equivalent of a dude 6'7"[1]. Despite being short like Wilson, Manziel's hands are the same size. A lot more people seem to be noticing this about Manziel pre-draft than they did with Wilson.

It's funny to see that Manziel is almost a Wilson clone, but he's going to go 1 or 2 in the draft. What an influence media planted perceptions play in outcomes--lucky for us in this case!

[1] When people say Kaepernick is more athletic than Wilson, I remember that Wilson has much larger hands and a better 10 yard split on his 40. Wilson's superior elusiveness and ball control are real athletic traits and Kap isn't the slam dunk better QB athlete it might appear at first glance.
 

kearly

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Nice Gifs Formido. I like the eurostep analogy too.

Interesting insights regarding Jeremy Lin and Manziel's hand size (yet another reason for Manziel-Wilson comps). If Wilson turns into the QB I think he will next season, it could help ensure a first two rounds selection for Manziel, assuming GMs notice the similarities between the two. Everyone wanted the next Russell Wilson this year. Next year, they will REALLY want the next Russell Wilson after he tears up the league this season. Few quarterbacks are even worth the comparison, very few. But Manziel is one of them, IMO.

theENGLISHseahawk":21u4phen said:
The best way to describe Manziel came from a Rams fan I spoke to in April... where he basically said he plays the game like he's saying "Oh shit, Oh shit, Oh shit..." in his head after the snap.

:lol:

Pretty much, yeah.
 

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