I would be surprised if DeAndre Hopkins ends up a Seahawk

Discuss your thoughts about anything draft related. Mocks, College and Pro. Knock yourselves out!!! RATING: PG-13
  • kearly wrote:
    Recon_Hawk wrote:I don't disagree that they want speed and quickness, but only two picks at one position over 3 years isn't enough for me to think they automatically pass on those who don't fit that category.


    Well if you count UDFA's like Baldwin, Bates, Kearse, and Tuinei, and add them to Tate and Durham, then you'd have five of six WR that posted good 40 times and the one who didn't might have been signed as an experiment as a fast TE.

    Green Bay's model (which influenced John Schneider) shows a conclusive process- speed matters. Quickness matters. Other points are negotiable.

    Remember how John Schneider disliked last year's WR draft class despite everyone else saying it was great (including me)? The reason was because last year was the year of the big WR, not the year of the fast/quick WR. This year is the year of the fast/quick WR, and now Schneider is showing much greater signs of interest.


    All good points. A couple things:

    UDFA signings usually tend to be developmental, athletic types. The cost is low, so why not sign someone who is raw and hope they can develop the mental part of their game.

    Last years draft at WR, compared to this one, just sucked. It lacked depth throughout the draft and even the big WRs weren't that good, in hindsight, so it may have been just that instead of size vs speed.

    In all honesty, I think you're right about Hopkins not getting drafted by Seattle. I think Seattle will be looking for 1. Size 2. Speed 3. Available with our 2nd round pick or later, so none of that fits Hopkins, but I do feel Hopkins has intangibles that would excite a coach like Carroll. Just not enough to pick him the first round.
    I am Godzilla, you are Japan!
    User avatar
    Recon_Hawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2095
    Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:01 pm
    Location: Vancouver, Wa


  • Well based on what happened last year it's safe to say no one knows for sure what Pete and John will do this year. Hopkins is a player they will take a serious look at and I could easily see them taking a WR at 25.
    User avatar
    General Manager
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2260
    Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:04 pm


  • Recon_Hawk wrote:Last years draft at WR, compared to this one, just sucked. It lacked depth throughout the draft and even the big WRs weren't that good, in hindsight, so it may have been just that instead of size vs speed.


    In hindsight, it appears that way, but going in it was pretty hyped. One of the largest draft sites, Mocking The Draft, asked readers which area of the draft was the strongest and WR ran away with the vote (I voted RB, and look pretty smart for it considering how good that rookie RB class was).

    If Seattle prized size first, they would have taken a WR last year. There were a ton of them available in the first three rounds. That draft was all about big WRs, and JS went out of his way to say he didn't think it was a very good group.
    User avatar
    kearly
    * Mr Random Thought *
     
    Posts: 11218
    Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:44 am


  • kearly wrote:
    Recon_Hawk wrote:Last years draft at WR, compared to this one, just sucked. It lacked depth throughout the draft and even the big WRs weren't that good, in hindsight, so it may have been just that instead of size vs speed.


    In hindsight, it appears that way, but going in it was pretty hyped. One of the largest draft sites, Mocking The Draft, asked readers which area of the draft was the strongest and WR ran away with the vote (I voted RB, and look pretty smart for it considering how good that rookie RB class was).

    If Seattle prized size first, they would have taken a WR last year. There were a ton of them available in the first three rounds. That draft was all about big WRs, and JS went out of his way to say he didn't think it was a very good group.


    Had Seattle prized receivers who are fast and athletic first, and experience and polish second, they would have just drafted Stephen Hill with their 2nd rd pick last year, instead of trading with the Jets to take him instead. He's the perfect definition of the player you're arguing they want in a receiver: fast (ran a 4.37), high upside because of his size, dominated all the other combine tests for receivers, and even fits the Green Bay model of being a 2nd rounder.

    But they didn't for the same reason they didn't draft a big, experienced receiver, either. Receiver wasn't a huge need last year and definitely not worth taking over any of our first three round picks.

    I do agree last years draft had a lot of size, but it had its share of speed guys, too, and so far, one of 2012's better rookie receiver wasn't even big or fast. It was Kendall Wright, the 5' 10" kid from Baylor who shocked everyone by running a 4.61 and was still drafted #20 as the "polished" receiver of the bunch.

    Really, last years class was just bad, not because it was all size, but because it also lacked depth and quality.
    I am Godzilla, you are Japan!
    User avatar
    Recon_Hawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2095
    Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:01 pm
    Location: Vancouver, Wa


  • The two players that helped their draft stock the most yesterday, to me, appears to be Ryan Swope and Trevon Austin...GMs probably put back in the tapes of these kids after they ran identical 40 times at 4.34 and saw they were both clutch performers and had great potential. Both will probably be gone by our pick in round 2. If they are not, and we don't take Hopkins, I'm all for taking either of them. Their stock soared IMO after yesterday.
    User avatar
    aawolf
    NET Starter
     
    Posts: 447
    Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:04 am


  • Like Kip, I don't see Hopkins as the pick, but not because of a lack of athleticism. I could see them taking him later in the draft because they like his unique skills, just not the first. I think they won't take a first round WR unless he is a can't miss freak.

    Hopkins reminds me of John Carlson. He is what he is, not much development needed. High floor, safe pick.
    SEAHAWKS.NET. We All We Got, We All We Need
    User avatar
    Scottemojo
    *Scott of Smacksville*
    *Scott of Smacksville*
     
    Posts: 11252
    Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:14 am


  • aawolf wrote:The two players that helped their draft stock the most yesterday, to me, appears to be Ryan Swope and Trevon Austin...GMs probably put back in the tapes of these kids after they ran identical 40 times at 4.34 and saw they were both clutch performers and had great potential. Both will probably be gone by our pick in round 2. If they are not, and we don't take Hopkins, I'm all for taking either of them. Their stock soared IMO after yesterday.


    If I'm in the Hawks war room, I'm pounding the table for Swope in the 1st round because I agree with you, he won't last until our 2nd round pick at #56.

    The only other way I see us getting him is to find a trade partner for Flynn and trade up into the upper half of the 2nd round and nab him.

    The Jets at #39 would work nicely.

    In a perfect scenario, the Hawks would select DT Short at #25 and then trade Flynn to the Jets for a swap of 2nd round picks to enable the Hawks to select Swope with the 39th overall pick. :th2thumbs:
    your Superbowl XLVIII Champion Seattle Seahawks.. how sweet is that!!
    User avatar
    onanygivensunday
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3106
    Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:59 am


  • Scottemojo wrote:Like Kip, I don't see Hopkins as the pick, but not because of a lack of athleticism. I could see them taking him later in the draft because they like his unique skills, just not the first. I think they won't take a first round WR unless he is a can't miss freak.

    Hopkins reminds me of John Carlson. He is what he is, not much development needed. High floor, safe pick.


    I'm sorry, but I disagree with both you and Kearly about Hopkin's value or his "ceiling". I think this dude is a flat-out playmaker and I want him more than Swope or Austin. The difference is that I saw Hopkins as the guy in Clemson's offense that you just knew was going to get the ball on third down somehow, and yet defenses just couldn't stop it. He was similar to NC State legend, Torry Holt, in this regard. You just knew he would make a play when it mattered. I'm sure Austin and Swope would be fine picks, but they didn't even get the most yards on their teams (Mike Evans at A&M got more receptions and yards than Swope and Steadman Bailey got more yards and an equal number of receptions at WVU). I'm just saying that I think Hopkins is more of a game-breaker than these two and I still feel he's worthy of our first round pick.

    I'd trade up to get any of them in the second if we can get an earlier pick though.
    User avatar
    aawolf
    NET Starter
     
    Posts: 447
    Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:04 am


  • Is there ANY chance Swope lasts until Seattle's pick in round 2? If not, I don't see him as a Hawk. As everyone has rightly pointed out, JS/PC are pretty up front about team needs and what they likely go after and they've stated pass rush, pass rush, pass rush. And after he posted that 40 time, I'd be very surprised if he got past round 1. As many have mentioned, he'd fit NE nearly perfectly and the cap savings for them by being able to wave good-bye to Welker as a result would be significant.
    From the white sands
    To the canyon lands
    To the redwood stands
    To the barren lands

    Image

    Proud member of the 38 club
    User avatar
    hawksfansinceday1
    NET Pro Bowler
     
    Posts: 11814
    Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:38 am
    Location: Vancouver, WA


  • hawksfansinceday1 wrote:Is there ANY chance Swope lasts until Seattle's pick in round 2? If not, I don't see him as a Hawk. As everyone has rightly pointed out, JS/PC are pretty up front about team needs and what they likely go after and they've stated pass rush, pass rush, pass rush. And after he posted that 40 time, I'd be very surprised if he got past round 1. As many have mentioned, he'd fit NE nearly perfectly and the cap savings for them by being able to wave good-bye to Welker as a result would be significant.


    Wow, the Ryan Swope hype grew pretty fast.

    There's absolutely every chance that Swope lasts to our 2nd rd pick. I'd be a bit surprised if he didn't. This is a deep draft at WR and a 6' slot receiver, even with speed, may not be what every team is looking for. Jmo
    I am Godzilla, you are Japan!
    User avatar
    Recon_Hawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2095
    Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:01 pm
    Location: Vancouver, Wa


  • I think you're right.

    I'm not really sure who fits the mould that you are referencing though?

    There really are no sub 4.5 guys besides Hunter that are 6'1+ and have huge YAC.. I think the player you are describing his Julio Jones, AJ Green, and Megatron.

    I think Justin Hunter is still the guy. The Tape SUCKS, he has slow feet, and isn't good after catch. However, isn't this all stuff that can be taught with a guy who runs 4.43 with a ridiculous frame? I think so.
    Image

    "We all we got, we all we need"
    User avatar
    lukerguy
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1462
    Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:00 pm


  • kearly wrote:
    Schneider learned his craft in Green Bay, and if you look at WRs they drafted you will see a similar trend- speed and YAC ability first and foremost. Randall Cobb ran a 4.39 forty. Greg Jennings a 4.42. Donald Driver a 4.45. Jordy Nelson a 4.51. James Jones a 4.54 (listed 4.59 some places).



    JS didn't draft Cobb (I know you're just saying that the system he learned under did), and I think it's a huge assumption to say that he had his hand in all four of those listed. I don't think you can deduct much from that to be honest.
    I don't think a lot of those WRs are as good as Arod and Favre (to some extent) has made them. You're taking about the best successor/predecessor combination since Montana/Young. I wouldn't be surprised to see Jenning move elsewhere and put up less than 700 yards in a full season.

    The only thing I think JS and PC look for is, can they tilt the field? Can they make plays? To some extent, I have still a small hope in Nuke Hopkins being a Seahawk.
    Image

    "We all we got, we all we need"
    User avatar
    lukerguy
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1462
    Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:00 pm


  • lukerguy wrote:I think you're right.

    I'm not really sure who fits the mould that you are referencing though?

    There really are no sub 4.5 guys besides Hunter that are 6'1+ and have huge YAC.. I think the player you are describing his Julio Jones, AJ Green, and Megatron.

    I think Justin Hunter is still the guy. The Tape SUCKS, he has slow feet, and isn't good after catch. However, isn't this all stuff that can be taught with a guy who runs 4.43 with a ridiculous frame? I think so.


    My take is based only on Swope's 2011 season, so maybe he's grown a lot and I'm wrong, but I never got the sense Swope can be an outside threat the same way even guys slower them him are. He's great on the inside because he's intelligent and has the quickness and speed to get YAC but, IMO, he works better in space then he would fighting for a jump ball along the sideline or on deep routes.

    Now, don't get me wrong, I really like Swope as a player who would probably beat out Baldwin or at least make plays in 4-receiver sets, and I mentioned this in Kip's Dream Mock, but if Im drafting a receiver in the first two rounds, I want a player who could replace Sidney on the outside if need be. I don't think Swope can be that guy. And for other teams looking for depth with their X or Z spots, they may feel the same way, thus reducing the chance he's drafted earlier than our second round pick.
    I am Godzilla, you are Japan!
    User avatar
    Recon_Hawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2095
    Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:01 pm
    Location: Vancouver, Wa


  • aawolf wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:Like Kip, I don't see Hopkins as the pick, but not because of a lack of athleticism. I could see them taking him later in the draft because they like his unique skills, just not the first. I think they won't take a first round WR unless he is a can't miss freak.

    Hopkins reminds me of John Carlson. He is what he is, not much development needed. High floor, safe pick.


    I'm sorry, but I disagree with both you and Kearly about Hopkin's value or his "ceiling". I think this dude is a flat-out playmaker and I want him more than Swope or Austin. The difference is that I saw Hopkins as the guy in Clemson's offense that you just knew was going to get the ball on third down somehow, and yet defenses just couldn't stop it. He was similar to NC State legend, Torry Holt, in this regard. You just knew he would make a play when it mattered. I'm sure Austin and Swope would be fine picks, but they didn't even get the most yards on their teams (Mike Evans at A&M got more receptions and yards than Swope and Steadman Bailey got more yards and an equal number of receptions at WVU). I'm just saying that I think Hopkins is more of a game-breaker than these two and I still feel he's worthy of our first round pick.

    I'd trade up to get any of them in the second if we can get an earlier pick though.

    I think you are taking me all wrong. I like Hopkins. I just don't think the Hawks like to use first round picks on receivers. They will, but only on a freak. Hopkins is not a freak, IMO. Also, Torry Holt was damn fast, Hopkins is not. Dismiss his lack of speed if you want, but I think that matters to Pete.

    FWIW, if I am wrong about what they prefer and they take him in the first, I will think it is a good pick.
    SEAHAWKS.NET. We All We Got, We All We Need
    User avatar
    Scottemojo
    *Scott of Smacksville*
    *Scott of Smacksville*
     
    Posts: 11252
    Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:14 am


  • kearly wrote:Maybe you've heard this term: "BIGGER FASTER STRONGER." When I played in division II, I was an offensive lineman and I even I was getting training on speed optimization techniques. That combined with many years of college level conditioning and workouts, he'll be far more of an athlete now than he was then. Speed is partially a factor of lower body quick twitch strength (how many pounds per square inch of force on the push off combined with pace), you can't teach it but it can be optimized. Maybe your legs can only move so many times per minute, but if you explode 2 more inches per leg move, it will increase your speed. It's very common for athletes to gain size AND speed compared to their pre-athlete levels.




    Jesus Montero - please pick up the white phone
    GoHawks
    NET Starter
     
    Posts: 489
    Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:49 pm


  • I agree that they will probably go DL but not because of any problems thay have with Hopkins talent, size or speed. They will probably draft DL from a value standpoint and they have issues there thats a fact. However if Hopkins is there i'd love to see him on the field with Wilson Tate and Rice. That would complete our offense .
    User avatar
    General Manager
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2260
    Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:04 pm


  • I think barring a move up.. we're probably out of range for Cordarrelle Patterson (this years Julio Jones IMO) and Tavon Austin.

    Keenan Allen may go above 25 too.
    February 2, 2014... the day the dream was finally realized
    User avatar
    Hasselbeck
    * NET Sage *
     
    Posts: 5137
    Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 4:55 pm


  • Also I know PC has shied away from picking up USC guys.. but Robert Woods may be in play as well.. he looked VERY impressive during drills. Caught everything, ran a good 40.. etc.
    February 2, 2014... the day the dream was finally realized
    User avatar
    Hasselbeck
    * NET Sage *
     
    Posts: 5137
    Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 4:55 pm


  • Hasselbeck wrote:Also I know PC has shied away from picking up USC guys.. but Robert Woods may be in play as well.. he looked VERY impressive during drills. Caught everything, ran a good 40.. etc.


    I think he ran an ok 40- 4.51. I was shocked that he didn't run a sub 4.5.. I think I'd be much more interested if he ran a 4.40. Sidney Rice runs a 4.5
    Image

    "We all we got, we all we need"
    User avatar
    lukerguy
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1462
    Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:00 pm


  • Recon_Hawk wrote:Had Seattle prized receivers who are fast and athletic first, and experience and polish second, they would have just drafted Stephen Hill with their 2nd rd pick last year, instead of trading with the Jets to take him instead. He's the perfect definition of the player you're arguing they want in a receiver: fast (ran a 4.37), high upside because of his size, dominated all the other combine tests for receivers, and even fits the Green Bay model of being a 2nd rounder.


    Seattle was locked into LB in that round. Info Rob and I had combined with Pete's statements strongly inferred as much. Rob and I were mocking LBs in round 2 long before they actually took Bobby Wagner there. WR was not even listed by our inside source as a need that offseason. As you said, they probably weren't going to draft a WR no matter what in the early rounds that year.

    FWIW, I don't really think Hill truly fits the mold. Fast, big, unpolished yes, but he was more of a vertical guy than a YAC guy. Didn't have the quickest feet.

    lukerguy wrote:JS didn't draft Cobb (I know you're just saying that the system he learned under did), and I think it's a huge assumption to say that he had his hand in all four of those listed. I don't think you can deduct much from that to be honest.


    Not saying he had a hand in it, saying that Ted Thompson drafted those WRs, and Schneider learned his craft from Ted Thompson.

    GoHawks wrote:Jesus Montero - please pick up the white phone


    ?

    Scottemojo wrote:FWIW, if I am wrong about what they prefer and they take him in the first, I will think it is a good pick.


    I'm in this category as well. If anything, this thread was an attempt to keep my hopes from getting up.
    User avatar
    kearly
    * Mr Random Thought *
     
    Posts: 11218
    Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:44 am


  • kearly wrote:
    GoHawks wrote:Jesus Montero - please pick up the white phone


    ?

    Kip - If you weren't aware, Jesus Montero (Mariners catcher) is notorious slow and would benefit from your statements that running speed can be improved.
    your Superbowl XLVIII Champion Seattle Seahawks.. how sweet is that!!
    User avatar
    onanygivensunday
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3106
    Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:59 am


  • We know that Seattle breaks down their draft into "pockets." Last year for example, they had pass rush very early, RB in round 1-3 (then forced to go 4th round), QB 4-6 (forced to go 3rd round), etc.

    I suspect Seattle's "zone" table probably looks like this:

    Pass rush: 1st round, rounds 3-5. I think Seattle will draft at least 2 pass rushers, one very early and a second in the middle rounds. If Richardson or Short are there, I'd be stunned if Seattle passed.

    Red Bryant backup: rounds 3-7. A big 5-tech. Optional pick, but could happen if they really like a guy.

    Wide receiver: rounds 2-4. Seattle might draft a second WR even later. I could see Seattle going WR in round one if they don't like the pass rush options there.

    Tight end: rounds 2-6. Chris Gragg in round 5 or round 6 sounds about right.

    Quarterback: rounds 4-7. UDFA a possibility.

    Offensive tackle: rounds 3-7.

    Corner: rounds 6-7.

    Safety: rounds 6-7, barring someone like Vaccaro reaching #25.

    Linebacker: rounds 2-5.

    An example of what that draft might look like:

    1st: DT
    2nd: WR
    3rd: DE
    4th: LB
    5th: T
    5th: TE
    6th: QB
    7th: CB
    7th: S
    7th: WR #2 or DE #2 or 5-tech
    Last edited by kearly on Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
    User avatar
    kearly
    * Mr Random Thought *
     
    Posts: 11218
    Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:44 am


  • onanygivensunday wrote:
    kearly wrote:
    GoHawks wrote:Jesus Montero - please pick up the white phone


    ?

    Kip - If you weren't aware, Jesus Montero (Mariners catcher) is notorious slow and would benefit from your statements that running speed can be improved.


    Oh I know who Montero is. My statement was about guys going from HS to NCAA, so I didn't see the relevance with Montero. Montero is screwed in the speed category. Although as a catcher/1B/DH, speed isn't really a big deal. Hopefully Montero turns into a solid hitter. That's why they traded for him.
    User avatar
    kearly
    * Mr Random Thought *
     
    Posts: 11218
    Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:44 am


  • aawolf wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:Like Kip, I don't see Hopkins as the pick, but not because of a lack of athleticism. I could see them taking him later in the draft because they like his unique skills, just not the first. I think they won't take a first round WR unless he is a can't miss freak.

    Hopkins reminds me of John Carlson. He is what he is, not much development needed. High floor, safe pick.


    I'm sorry, but I disagree with both you and Kearly about Hopkin's value or his "ceiling". I think this dude is a flat-out playmaker and I want him more than Swope or Austin. The difference is that I saw Hopkins as the guy in Clemson's offense that you just knew was going to get the ball on third down somehow, and yet defenses just couldn't stop it. He was similar to NC State legend, Torry Holt, in this regard. You just knew he would make a play when it mattered. I'm sure Austin and Swope would be fine picks, but they didn't even get the most yards on their teams (Mike Evans at A&M got more receptions and yards than Swope and Steadman Bailey got more yards and an equal number of receptions at WVU). I'm just saying that I think Hopkins is more of a game-breaker than these two and I still feel he's worthy of our first round pick.

    I'd trade up to get any of them in the second if we can get an earlier pick though.


    The Austin-Bailey yardage/receptions number is a little bit skewed because Austin spent a good portion of time at RB the back half of the season because of WVU's struggling run game. (72carry for 643yds and 3tds...although really, it should be more carries/yards and less rec/yards because of that touch pass jet sweep)

    Bailey and Hopkins are more comparable than Hopkins-Austin though. Stedman runs good routes and just flat out knows how to get open....and despite not being a freakish athlete, he's able to use his body to maintain position. Plus his hands are covered in super glue. He catches everything.

    Tavon really improved his hands this year, and has gotten a lot better in his role as a slot guy... I wouldn't call him the over the top/deep threat/home run hitter type...he's got the speed to burn guys, but he's not going to outjump a lot of people 1 on 1. Sticking with baseball terms, he's the guy that steals home. In the words of....Maroon 5...he's got them moves like Jagger. He's got a few jukes he pulls that I've never seen before.

    His value isn't in his pure slot ability though...it's in his utility. He could replace an aging Washington in the return game and handle a few carrys a game as a change of pace back after beastmode wears a defense down
    bigfatguy64
    NET Bench Warmer
     
    Posts: 10
    Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:47 pm




It is currently Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:57 am

Please REGISTER to become a member

Return to [ THE NCAA FOOTBALL & PRO DRAFT FORUM ]




Information
  • Who is online