And the Heisman goes to...

JSeahawks

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Can't hold Marquise Lee's jock as a football player.

But hey, at least he's thanking The 12th man.

If A&M was still in the Big 12 rather then the SEC I dont think Manziel would have even been invited to the ceremony. And in case you cant tell... yes, i'm a little bit bitter about him winning (even though i've known since the Alabama game that he would.)
 
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Hawk Finn

Hawk Finn

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He's a freaking frosh, J. A&M isn't even in the discussion without this kid. That said, you'll get no argument from me on Lee's talent.
 

JSeahawks

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Hawk Finn":2jymxtwv said:
He's a freaking frosh, J. A&M isn't even in the discussion without this kid. That said, you'll get no argument from me on Lee's talent.

Well, in my mind he's not even the best freshman QB this year. I'd take Mariota any day of the week and 10 times on Saturday over Manziel. And yes, i fully admit that i'm biased and bitter about it.
 
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Hawk Finn

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Fair enough. I'm a Syracuse guy, so bitterness is second nature to me. I feel your pain.
 

SharkHawk

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Compare Manziel's numbers to every other Heisman winning QB out of the SEC over the years. He beats them pretty badly in a few key areas, and he did that as a FRESHMAN. This wasn't like he stepped into a juggernaut of a team either. A&M is always up and down, and he came in and got progressively better as the year went on, just as RG3 did last year. You can't overlook what he did. There probably isn't a team I dislike more than Texas A&M, but I can't deny that this kid was a one man show. He didn't have the support staff that guys like Mariota had, or the coaching, or talent surrounding him. This was supposed to be a very down year for them, and he came out and lit it up. He's a real phenom and as cool of a freshman as I've seen in quite some time, at a much more difficult position to play than WR or RB.
 

Carmon1274

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He had 3 picks and 0 TD against LSU and don't know much about college football heisman stuff but why didn't geno smith get invited?
 

JSeahawks

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Carmon1274":1471u8js said:
He had 3 picks and 0 TD against LSU and don't know much about college football heisman stuff but why didn't geno smith get invited ?

Because his defense sucks. Which is a stupid reason not to get considered for a Heisman, but I really think thats the reason. If the award was given half way thru the season though he would have been a shoe in to win it. he's another guy that i would rather have as my teams QB then Manziel. He didnt even end up in the top 10 though, so its a good thing he wasnt invited.

The top 10:

1. Johnny Manziel
2. Manti Te'o
3. Collin Klein
4. Marquise Lee
5. Braxton Miller
6. Jadeveon Clowney
7. Jordan Lynch
8. Taveon Austin
9. Kenjon Barner
10. Jarvis Jones.

http://heismanpundit.com/2012/12/08/78t ... on-results
 

kearly

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I'm glad Manziel won from that group. Mariota should have been nominated though. It makes no sense for Klein to be a finalist and not Mariota. It's one of the lame things about any awards process. If not for an overtime loss to a very tough Stanford team, Oregon is #1 and Mariota is almost certainly a finalist (and maybe the winner) in that scenario.

Also, Braxton Miller was snubbed horribly as well. Should mention that too. It's kind of insulting that some of the best Heisman candidates in the country were not even finalists, which is even worse since they only had 3 options this year instead of the usual 5-6.
 

JSeahawks

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kearly":4c0vnvvm said:
I'm glad Manziel won from that group. Mariota should have been nominated though. It makes no sense for Klein to be a finalist and not Mariota. It's one of the lame things about any awards process. If not for an overtime loss to a very tough Stanford team, Oregon is #1 and Mariota is almost certainly a finalist (and maybe the winner) in that scenario.

Also, Braxton Miller was snubbed horribly as well. Should mention that too. It's kind of insulting that some of the best Heisman candidates in the country were not even finalists, which is even worse since they only had 3 options this year instead of the usual 5-6.

I think the reason Klein made it is because he basically IS K State's football team. Take him away and I bet they have a losing record. Even though I think Mariota is a better QB then Klein, if you take him away the Ducks still probably only have 2 or maybe 3 losses. I thought Barner deserved it more then Mariota this year but the Ducks spread the glory around a little bit too much to have one guy be the Heisman focal point. . Next year could be Mariota's year as our RB's will be pretty young adn I think we might be more of a throw first team then we've been in recent seasons.

I think this was a really down year for the Heisman. Manziel has the numbers i just dont see him as a GREAT qb for some reason. My final 3 probably would have been Marquise Lee, Geno Smith and Klein. I dont think I ever saw a single snap from Braxton Miller, so I cant really judge him.

Overall I think the Heisman is not what it used to be. Seems to be pretty much just a hype award these days. I personally think the other awards like the Doak Walker award, the Biletnikoff award, etc are more legitimate and prestigious.
 

Rat

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Jordan Lynch deserved a lot more love. Led FBS in rushing, and threw 24 TDs to 5 INTs for a team that made a BCS bowl.
 

kearly

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SharkHawk":3h317rz9 said:
Compare Manziel's numbers to every other Heisman winning QB out of the SEC over the years. He beats them pretty badly in a few key areas, and he did that as a FRESHMAN. This wasn't like he stepped into a juggernaut of a team either. A&M is always up and down, and he came in and got progressively better as the year went on, just as RG3 did last year. You can't overlook what he did. There probably isn't a team I dislike more than Texas A&M, but I can't deny that this kid was a one man show. He didn't have the support staff that guys like Mariota had, or the coaching, or talent surrounding him. This was supposed to be a very down year for them, and he came out and lit it up. He's a real phenom and as cool of a freshman as I've seen in quite some time, at a much more difficult position to play than WR or RB.

Good points. I'm not saying this as a knock on Mariota, but he's a mechanical QB at this point. He's very good within the strict confines of Kelly's offense, and that has allowed him to get away with questionable decisions at times. His rushing offense and read option scheme make his life much easier, not to mention that the playbook for Mariota is very simple and easy to pick up.

By contrast, Manziel is a point guard at QB who makes improvised plays in real time, which is a very rare skill for college QBs. He doesn't need structure to be his best. In fact, he seems deadliest when allowed to improvise. And that's not even getting into the leadership aspect. As a leader, Manziel is Tebow-esque. He's the best example of a "tilt the field" QB I've ever seen, a guy that makes his whole team play better because they all believe he can will them to a victory in any situation. I think Manziel's situation right now is a little like Wilson's at NC State- if he were to transfer in year 4 and go to a major top ranked school I could see him having a scary final season just like Wilson did.
 

SEC FAN

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Cool, I'm glad he won it. I think I got too wrapped up in the Te'o story. I didn't watch the show but did they bring up Johnny Footballs crappy game against LSU?
 

JSeahawks

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SEC FAN":375yrgk2 said:
Cool, I'm glad he won it. I think I got too wrapped up in the Te'o story. I didn't watch the show but did they bring up Johnny Footballs crappy game against LSU?

I dont think it was even acknowledged. But thats pretty much the usual, they tend to focus on the positives and not look at the negatives for all of the contenders. And on the show itself they tend to look at more of the human stories of the guys rather then the on the field stuff.

The most surprising part of the show to me was that they mentioned that Collin Klein never even kissed his wife before their wedding day. I call b.s. on that.
 

JSeahawks

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Manziel vs Mariota

First of all let me make it very clear that i'm not saying Mariota should have won the Heisman, i wouldnt have even put him in my top 5 if I had a vote. I'm just saying that he's a better QB.

Manziel had 88 more pass attempts then Mariota. But Mariota had 6 more TD's (30 to 24). Mariota had a 5:1 Td/Int ratio while Manziel's was 3:1. Mariota had a slightly higher completion percentage while Manziel had a slightly higher average yards per completion. Mariota's QB rating was 10 points higher.

Manziel had 96 more rushing attempts then Mariota. But Mariota averaged 7.04 on his rush attempts while Manziel averaged 6.46. Manziel did have a huge advantage in rushing Tds: 19 to 4.

I would argue that Manziel had a much better offensive line and slightly better receiving core. Mariota had the advantage of a much better running game (which is why he had so many fewer rushing tds) and better overall offensive system.

It seems clear to me that the only reason Manziel had better numbers is because he had greatly more opportunity.
Mariota was the victim of his own success. He, and his teammates were so good in the first half of games that he didnt get the chance to build up stats in the 2nd halves on many occasions.

I would also argue that Mariota makes his teammates better by sticking with the play and trusting the play and only takes off as a last option, rather then Manziel who takes off at the first sign of trouble and does the rest on his own. Mariota is Russell Wilson, Manziel is a young Michael Vick. Both great and dynamic players but which would you rather have running your team?

One final stat. Against top 25 opponents Mariota threw for 12 td's and 3 interceptions with a record of 4-1. Against top 25 opponents Manziel had 5 td's and 4 int's with a 2-2 record.

And a question for Kearly, every time you talk about Mariota you mention questionable decision making, can you point to an example? (not arguiing, just trying to have a friendly debate and trying to understand).

p.s. I promise this will be my last Mariota post until next season, cuz i'm even annoying myself with them.
 

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I thought Te'o should've won it among the three. Marquis Lee was the best player eligible to win the Heisman(The people that vote on these things dont pay attention to the trenches so I disregard all the studs there as eligible). Manziel is a hell of a player, he's a system guy with a good story and the media ran with it. Te'o was a straight up football player, the heart and soul of an undefeated team. But, he plays defense, and the assclowns that do this think its all about the qb and the running backs.

I think, certain special occasions excluded, that the Heisman hasn't caught up in recent years to the growing devaluing of running backs.

The Heisman is for a transcendent player, and I think this year, the field was lacking in that regard. You want to tell your grandkids about the guys who won the Heisman. Will I do that about Johnny football? Who knows? But guys like Mark Ingram, Jason White and Troy Smith just don't apply. You know who did this year? Marquis Lee. I will tell my grandkids about that stud. Johnny football? Meh, we'll see.
 

SeatownJay

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If JSeahawks had his way the three players invited to NYC would've been Mariota, Barner, and Lyerla.
 

JSeahawks

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SeatownJay":2dkwnqip said:
If JSeahawks had his way the three players invited to NYC would've been Mariota, Barner, and Lyerla.

Incorrect. It would have been Marquise Lee, Geno Smith and Collin Klein.
 

DTexHawk

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That's pretty good.

It only took 3 minutes to go from a "congratulations thread" to a whiners thread!

Go Johnny Football!!!!!
 

SEC FAN

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JSeahawks":2l1btt5v said:
Manziel vs Mariota

First of all let me make it very clear that i'm not saying Mariota should have won the Heisman, i wouldnt have even put him in my top 5 if I had a vote. I'm just saying that he's a better QB.

Manziel had 88 more pass attempts then Mariota. But Mariota had 6 more TD's (30 to 24). Mariota had a 5:1 Td/Int ratio while Manziel's was 3:1. Mariota had a slightly higher completion percentage while Manziel had a slightly higher average yards per completion. Mariota's QB rating was 10 points higher.

Manziel had 96 more rushing attempts then Mariota. But Mariota averaged 7.04 on his rush attempts while Manziel averaged 6.46. Manziel did have a huge advantage in rushing Tds: 19 to 4.

I would argue that Manziel had a much better offensive line and slightly better receiving core. Mariota had the advantage of a much better running game (which is why he had so many fewer rushing tds) and better overall offensive system.

It seems clear to me that the only reason Manziel had better numbers is because he had greatly more opportunity.
Mariota was the victim of his own success. He, and his teammates were so good in the first half of games that he didnt get the chance to build up stats in the 2nd halves on many occasions.

I would also argue that Mariota makes his teammates better by sticking with the play and trusting the play and only takes off as a last option, rather then Manziel who takes off at the first sign of trouble and does the rest on his own. Mariota is Russell Wilson, Manziel is a young Michael Vick. Both great and dynamic players but which would you rather have running your team?

One final stat. Against top 25 opponents Mariota threw for 12 td's and 3 interceptions with a record of 4-1. Against top 25 opponents Manziel had 5 td's and 4 int's with a 2-2 record.

And a question for Kearly, every time you talk about Mariota you mention questionable decision making, can you point to an example? (not arguiing, just trying to have a friendly debate and trying to understand).

p.s. I promise this will be my last Mariota post until next season, cuz i'm even annoying myself with them.

J don't make me do it. I keep thinking of that song by James Ingram...I don't have the heart to hurt you, its the last thing I want to do. I did some research before you brought this up but I'll just give you the short version without the stats and just off memory. Look at who Manziel has as a supporting cast, look at the defenses in the SEC (If my memory serves the majority in the Pac-12 give up over 100/150 plus more yards), look at how Mariota did against top defenses (Stanford), and don't make light of Manziels rushing TD's (he destroys Mariota and the rushing yards per attempt is negligible since once you cross the TD plain they stop counting rushing yards) . I'll give you 2 more that are objectionable but I believe to be true. Oregon plays late at night out here sometimes and they didn't have many sexy games due to being so much better than their opponents. The other is that I think the prevailing opinion is that Oregon is loaded with talent on offense and they run a gimmick offense (Basically Mariota isn't doing anything amazing he is just doing what Oregon QB's do). I believe they do have great talent on offense but I don't think its a gimmick offense myself; I think its a revolutionary offense like the west coast offense was in the 80's. But thats just the general opinion I see on this coast. I like Mariota and I studied him and his Hawaiian roots. I do like him and he may just win a Heisman.

I have to ask though, does it bother you that Manziel de-committed from Oregon?
 
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