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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:46 am 
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Didn't notice the connection at all. Well maybe people will spell his name right now after reading this.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:55 am 
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CamanoIslandJQ wrote:
On a similar topic......

Posts that are titled with vulgarity included (ie: F... this, F... that) is a concern of mine when I have a young granddaughter siting next to me, as recently happened. That is also very offensive. I don't mind vulgarity used in the body of a post because it can be ignored easier, however, in the title of a post to see "F... whatever" is inappropriate and a shows a lack of vocabulary on the writers part and is certainly not language that young children should be exposed to.

Can that be banned too?


Using anything like this, or any version of the F word isn't allowed in any forum except the smack shack, & PWR forums in any form. You should never see anything like that in the main forums, and if you do, report it immediately and it will be handled ASAP.

As for the shack, people should know never to go there with anyone under 18 around. It's posted in the forum description as over 18.

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:57 am 
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There was a time when the term, "tar baby" was used in many parts of this country...and it meant only one thing.

Do I think everyone who used the TAR caps was doing so as an insult? No.

Do I think Rockhawk went overboard here? IMHO, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF I AGREE WITH HIM! This board is not a democracy (trust me I know). This is Rock's playground and if you don't like the rules, there's the door.

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:21 am 
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Wow. It's not my site so I won't rag about this decision, but since I'm one of those who used the "forbidden spelling" I just want to point out that while there was absolutely zero racist intent on my part and that I was only emphasizing the "ar" in the QB's name (now I'm afraid to type it at all lest I offend someone) I do think this is kneejerk and a wee bit silly. If someone were using the forbidden spelling in a racist way then I'd be all for that guy (or girl) getting banned but banning words, and now spelling of words, to me is a slippery slope. I can't help but feel like we've just totally alienated all the pirates in our community and that is just blatantly insensitive.

Can we please now also ban spelling our backup QB's name as "WHITEhurst"? Maybe we can just can him "Wurst" or something inoffensive as that so we'd all be safe from racism.

But seriously, I guess now I am ragging a bit so I'll just say that I do appreciate that monitoring this site to keep it welcoming and civil is a very tough job and I appreciate the work our Admins, owner, etc, do. I get it, honestly, and respect that it isn't easy knowing "when to say when". In this case, however, I most lovingly and respectfully think we've gone a bit overboard (no offense to pirates or any drowning victims in our community).


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:25 am 
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MysterMatt wrote:
Wow. It's not my site so I won't rag about this decision, but since I'm one of those who used the "forbidden spelling" I just want to point out that while there was absolutely zero racist intent on my part and that I was only emphasizing the "ar" in the QB's name (now I'm afraid to type it at all lest I offend someone) I do think this is kneejerk and a wee bit silly. If someone were using the forbidden spelling in a racist way then I'd be all for that guy (or girl) getting banned but banning words, and now spelling of words, to me is a slippery slope. I can't help but feel like we've just totally alienated all the pirates in our community and that is just blatantly insensitive.

Can we please now also ban spelling our backup QB's name as "WHITEhurst"? Maybe we can just can him "Wurst" or something inoffensive as that so we'd all be safe from racism.

But seriously, I guess now I am ragging a bit so I'll just say that I do appreciate that monitoring this site to keep it welcoming and civil is a very tough job and I appreciate the work our Admins, owner, etc, do. I get it, honestly, and respect that it isn't easy knowing "when to say when". In this case, however, I most lovingly and respectfully think we've gone a bit overboard (no offense to pirates or any drowning victims in our community).

+1 This.

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:16 am 
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MysterMatt wrote:
Wow. It's not my site so I won't rag about this decision, but since I'm one of those who used the "forbidden spelling" I just want to point out that while there was absolutely zero racist intent on my part and that I was only emphasizing the "ar" in the QB's name (now I'm afraid to type it at all lest I offend someone) I do think this is kneejerk and a wee bit silly. If someone were using the forbidden spelling in a racist way then I'd be all for that guy (or girl) getting banned but banning words, and now spelling of words, to me is a slippery slope. I can't help but feel like we've just totally alienated all the pirates in our community and that is just blatantly insensitive.


Here's the problem MMatt: How are the mods/Mark to tell when it's being used in a racist manner and when it's not? How do you make the decision on whom to ban and whom to not ban? I don't think Mark wants to have to make that decision...do you blame him?

And here's another thought: Don't folks realize we have 'brothers' and 'sisters' who are members of this site and have been for a very long time? I try not to insult my friends...YMMV.

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:40 am 
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MysterMatt wrote:
Wow. It's not my site so I won't rag about this decision, but since I'm one of those who used the "forbidden spelling" I just want to point out that while there was absolutely zero racist intent on my part and that I was only emphasizing the "ar" in the QB's name (now I'm afraid to type it at all lest I offend someone) I do think this is kneejerk and a wee bit silly. If someone were using the forbidden spelling in a racist way then I'd be all for that guy (or girl) getting banned but banning words, and now spelling of words, to me is a slippery slope. I can't help but feel like we've just totally alienated all the pirates in our community and that is just blatantly insensitive.

Can we please now also ban spelling our backup QB's name as "WHITEhurst"? Maybe we can just can him "Wurst" or something inoffensive as that so we'd all be safe from racism.

But seriously, I guess now I am ragging a bit so I'll just say that I do appreciate that monitoring this site to keep it welcoming and civil is a very tough job and I appreciate the work our Admins, owner, etc, do. I get it, honestly, and respect that it isn't easy knowing "when to say when". In this case, however, I most lovingly and respectfully think we've gone a bit overboard (no offense to pirates or any drowning victims in our community).

I completly disagree highlighting '' TAR'' is derogatory when your talking about a Black QB , you know better than that and if you didn't now you do. You can claim ignorance but i'm not buying it.


Last edited by General Manager on Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:47 am 
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By "brothers" and "sisters" are you really trying to say that we have African American people who are members of this site? Or are we not allowed to say that, either? Look, Brian, I'm not trying to turn this into a debate and I've said my bit already. Stil, to answer your question I'll just say this: they shouldn't. Lots of benign words can be racist, sexist, homophobic, threatening, or just plain ol' hateful and it is wasted effort to try to control how they get used in every instance (which is what you are doing when you ban them) and by going down this path that the owner/mods of this board have chosen we'll now have to consider eliminating all sorts of things. Offhand, I'd say that since we don't like how emphasizing the first three letters of our QB-who-must-not-be-named might be used, then we should also ban any reference to drinking a "40", eating watermelon, being on our periods (sexist, not racist), or describing a play or coaching decision as "retarded" (especially if the coach in question is a "brother" or "sister").

Hate is what turns words vicious and I just can't help thinking we're better off not getting hung up on their trivial use, or spelling, and instead actually addressing situations where hate is clear. Good intentions do not justify certain knee-jerk decisions.

Cheers, and please again note that I'm just stating my opinion...no intent to offend anyone, anywhere. Ever.


Last edited by MysterMatt on Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:51 am 
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General Manager wrote:
I completly disagree highlighting '' TAR'' is derogatory when your talking about a Black QB , you know beeter than that and if you didn't now you do. You can claim ignorance but i'm not buying it.

Even when people still refer to him as "TAvaris"? Sorry, you're the one with the problem. It isn't derogatory at all. Making a racist comment would be derogatory, all this is is a correction to a frequent mis-spelling our our qb-not-to-be-named's name.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:08 pm 
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Firstly; I've never liked the term African American, that's why I don't use it. (My decision.) Secondly, we are not talking about 'lots of benign words.' We are talking about one particular term being used here.

I believe you know me well enough to know my ol' hippie butt deplores censorship...but sometimes it is a neccessary evil. Do I think you used TARvaris in a racist way? LOL! Of course not. But the problem is that there are those who will use it as a double entendre/insult'. Unfortunate but true.

Sometimes the majority has to take the hit for the actions of a few...such is life. (I've never mugged an old lady, but I think there should be laws against it.)

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:10 pm 
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I disagree, but like I said...ain't my site.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:37 pm 
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As a black man with many white friends, I can see how many of you feel. Yes, you are not racist and maybe have never experienced much more than sarcastic or distant racism. But to say that since you aren't being racist that you should be able to use it is a terrible argument.

Racism is still extremely prevalent in our society and was only a few decades ago when segregation was law. In fact, when my parents were to be married it was actually illegal in some states for interracial marriage to even happen.

I'm glad that you are not racist and "love black people" and all that. I love you too, but please, racism still exists, and it exists everywhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:48 pm 
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Frankly I’m shocked by those of you pushing back on this. I’ve stated many times before that I have a zero tolerance rule for anything that can even remotely be taken as racist, and this one is well over that line. Why in the hell would you be pushing back and defending something like this when you clearly have people verifying that it’s insensitive and can be taken as a racist tone?

I honestly just don’t understand. You can claim that you’re just trying to push back against unjust censorship all you want, but you are fighting to allow a potentially racist comment!!! And for what? Because you want to be able to say it to show how people are mispronouncing it?!? Are you kidding me?

Be argumentative all you want, but be smart enough to realize that by arguing on this one, you come across as defending bigotry and racial insensitivity, and I would generally distance myself from those things if it were me.

Oh well.

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:52 pm 
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We're all a little bit racist, or so I've heard, and being in an interracial relationship with a bi-racial daughter I'm pretty sensitive to the "distant" types of racism even if, as a white guy, I have never really had to be on the receiving end of it like so many others have. I get that I never will be able to walk in certain shoes but please don't think for a second that because of that I shouldn't try to be sensitive. My only point is that if we start attributing racial connotations (sp?) to purely coincidential situations like this one with the emphasis on the correct spelling of someone's name then I think we're missing the point.

Cheers, I'll shut up for good now on this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:54 pm 
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But you know what I really hate? CANADIANS! With their perfect teeth, good looks and excellent pronunciation. Damn them! :: shakes fist at sky::

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:59 pm 
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CANHawk wrote:
But you know what I really hate? CANADIANS! With their perfect teeth, good looks and excellent pronunciation. Damn them! :: shakes fist at sky::


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:09 pm 
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I thought people were typing it that way to show how it is spelled. Since so many people spell it incorrectly.

We should check if the misspellings are in any way racist too.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:14 pm 
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Coug_Hawk08 wrote:
I thought people were typing it that way to show how it is spelled. Since so many people spell it incorrectly.

We should check if the misspellings are in any way racist too.


Yes, of course we assume anyone using the term is racist. That's how we are around here. :34853_doh:

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:18 pm 
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RockHawk wrote:
Coug_Hawk08 wrote:
I thought people were typing it that way to show how it is spelled. Since so many people spell it incorrectly.

We should check if the misspellings are in any way racist too.


Yes, of course we assume anyone using the term is racist. That's how we are around here. :34853_doh:


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:18 pm 
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How about Tarvaris?

It amazes me that people can get so upset on an internet site. They're just words. I shutter to think how some of you take things in the real world.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:21 pm 
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LymonHawk wrote:
Firstly; I've never liked the term African American, that's why I don't use it. (My decision.)


I agree. I do not like any term that puts American second, unless of course they are native born of that particular continent or Nation. For Instance, my family immigrated from Mexico. I'm first generation American. I tell people that I'm American, or if they push for my parent's country of origin, I will say American-Mexican, or Chicano.

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:42 pm 
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Everyone does realize that his name is actually spelled Tarvaris and NOT Tavaris, correct??? His name is Tarvaris! I just assumed that people were trying to accentuate the correct spelling of TARvaris just as people would say DEON Grant, or SHAUN Alexander, or Grant WISTROM, or DEION Branch.

Again, if this topic wasnt posted, I would have never even imagined anything derogatory about the spelling of his name.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Just because you didn't know it was derogatory doesn't mean it's not derogatory.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:17 pm 
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But why call attention to something when i think not many people knew?


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:37 pm 
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But why call attention to something when i think not many people knew?

At a guess I would say it's because a person or a few people were in fact using it in a derogatory sense, and in order to stop them from doing so the mods have to stop everyone from doing so.

While the vast majority I am sure are of the sort who make no distinction between people on the basis of ancestry or origin, I have seen enough things on this board since Jackson became our QB to convince me that there are definitely exceptions to that. Heck, I have even seen slights aimed at me just because I don't live in the US, even though I was born and raised there and am still a US citizen.

I support the mods in laying out the rules clearly, so that no one gets to hide behind "I was just highlighting how it's supposed to be spelled" while chuckling up his sleeve at getting away with a racial slur.

I agree with some in that special rules highlight differences between people and reinforce that the differences are meaningful, which is in its own way racist, but in this instance I think it's called for and appropriate.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:44 pm 
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KiwiHawk wrote:
Quote:
But why call attention to something when i think not many people knew?

At a guess I would say it's because a person or a few people were in fact using it in a derogatory sense, and in order to stop them from doing so the mods have to stop everyone from doing so.


Kiwihawk wins the thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:00 pm 
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Wow, a tough topic. Being from England I find it fascinating how racial issues are dealt with in America. There was racism here - still is - but it always seemed to be...sort of different to on your side of the pond. (I don't mean that in any superior way - just that it has taken a different shape)

I know the media has a big part to say in this, and please- it deplores me how racism is still prevalent in English society, and society in general. I applaud any one who tries to dissuade/punish any racism. On this forum or in real life.

But...and I hate to use that word. I can understand why people are pushing this. Oooh its so hard, and my head can see both sides.

Ultimately though, Rock Hawk- as the owner of this site, has no choice but to ban this phrase. Although we know 99% of its use was in spelling and not prejudice, that 1% has to negate the others.

Let's say RockHawk bans someone because he know it was used in a racist manner. How can he prove it was racist when the said phrase is used by others as a method of pronunciation? Where do you draw the line? It opens legal issues that would murk moral waters even more.

There was 2 ways to deal with this- let it go and only deal with extreme cases that can be proved racist. Or ban the phrase altogether, drawing a line in the sand where any subsequent use would be judged on its own merit.

I think the latter option is a necessary medicine. It will allow this site to remain a forum for free opinions. Its stated its stance on the matter. I think almost everyone here (particularly those that run the site) have the intelligence to see when people are being prejudice, and will deal with them properly. If the phrase is innocently used again, I would hope they exercise caution and a word in the ear of the poster.

So I needn't think anyone should worry, and I know this is the case with announcements like this. It makes us all feel bad for ever using the phrase. Heck- i've used it. But never in any bigoted way.

No one's saying we have though. Only that a certain few have, and its caused the rest of us to have to change because they're idiots.

I don't necessarily like it. I sort of like the idea of allowing free speech when its clearly not meant in any malicious way. But when you're the owner of a respected site and there's some people ruining it for everyone else then I don't know really what choice you have.

The alternative is not awful for free speech, but it could be for this site - and that is something that must be taken into account.

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:04 pm 
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I am another reader who never realised the name highlighted that way could very easily be seen and be used as an "under the radar" yet deliberately derogatory racial way of referring to a an African American. Now I see and agree and I am happy with the decision. Can do without the potential racial innuendo.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:16 pm 
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A moment of your time about things like this.

I've been here since the start, when Aros and others most of you don't know were posting on a fanstop Seahawks site.

It was a constant dooney brook, swearing, fighting, racial, & sexual comments, personal threats. It was ok but got tiresome rather quickly.

After Todd started his own site which became Seahawks.net it wasn't much different. There were constant bickerings, arguments, trash talking etc. They added the smack shack and that helped a bit but still there was way to much personal bashing.

Low and behold several posters with kids that sat and talked with them when they were on this site began to complain and ask if we could hold stuff down and gradually over a couple of years we did. Some of the old guard had to be shown the door, or some like me toned it down. (most of you didn't know me in those days). While this only happened a very few times it made a dramatic difference. As the fighting bashing subsided our membership began to grow, and has continued to grow to this day.

So for those of you that are whining that "I want to" or "I didn't mean that", give it up. This is the world we live in and like or not we need to adjust because you're way in the miniority here. We're pretty pleasant about it, how many of you have received a PM from me either reminding you or letting you know that the F word is not allowed on any but Smack Shack or PWR Forums? Lots of you, have I ever been a jerk about it? Not unless you were. lol Trust me if there is a problem that catches Marks eye you would all rather hear from Matt, Steve, Judd, or me than hear from Mark.

The way for us to continue to grow is through a bit more political correctness than most sports fans can handle. But we aren't any sports fans, we are Seahawks & Seahawks.net fans, we are family. Do we all always agree no, do we all really care about each other? I'd like to think so.

As Sean Connery said in OUTLAND, "think about it".

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:04 pm 
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The Radish wrote:
A moment of your time about things like this.

I've been here since the start, when Aros and others most of you don't know were posting on a fanstop Seahawks site.

It was a constant dooney brook, swearing, fighting, racial, & sexual comments, personal threats. It was ok but got tiresome rather quickly.

After Todd started his own site which became Seahawks.net it wasn't much different. There were constant bickerings, arguments, trash talking etc. They added the smack shack and that helped a bit but still there was way to much personal bashing.

Low and behold several posters with kids that sat and talked with them when they were on this site began to complain and ask if we could hold stuff down and gradually over a couple of years we did. Some of the old guard had to be shown the door, or some like me toned it down. (most of you didn't know me in those days). While this only happened a very few times it made a dramatic difference. As the fighting bashing subsided our membership began to grow, and has continued to grow to this day.

So for those of you that are whining that "I want to" or "I didn't mean that", give it up. This is the world we live in and like or not we need to adjust because you're way in the miniority here. We're pretty pleasant about it, how many of you have received a PM from me either reminding you or letting you know that the F word is not allowed on any but Smack Shack or PWR Forums? Lots of you, have I ever been a jerk about it? Not unless you were. lol Trust me if there is a problem that catches Marks eye you would all rather hear from Matt, Steve, Judd, or me than hear from Mark.

The way for us to continue to grow is through a bit more political correctness than most sports fans can handle. But we aren't any sports fans, we are Seahawks & Seahawks.net fans, we are family. Do we all always agree no, do we all really care about each other? I'd like to think so.

As Sean Connery said in OUTLAND, "think about it".

:les:


Initially I balked at this thread as overly sensitive,but after reading this post I agree it is in the best interest of us all. Thanks Radish for setting me straight.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:30 pm 
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and its come to this. . . . . . hard to believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:59 pm 
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AbsolutNET wrote:
Obviously not everyone was ill intentioned when typing his name like that. But there's no doubt in my mind some were, which is enough to put an end to it.


At the onset, I didn't see it as a racial slurr, but I agree totally with this banning, there are some that think that they are being clever, by disguizeing it with the intention to get away with being an arse., great call Rock


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Good for you RockHawk and Seahawks Net, it's ridiculous the things you can read about Jackson or other African American QB's from time to time online I'm glad you guys are taking a stand against that here.

:th2thumbs:


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:13 pm 
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I really never saw it as racism. I saw it a good amount of times and it always seemed to be in threads where people spelled it TAvaris without the capital a.

Pretty funny that the world is so damn PC.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:16 pm 
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RockHawk wrote:
Frankly I’m shocked by those of you pushing back on this.


When half the people on the board had to read your explanation as to why it could be potentially construed as racist to figure it out, I think it's a sign that it might have been taken a bit too far in terms of banning it, particularly when it's known by all that the reason those three letters were capitalized was specifically because so many "geniuses" can't spell his first name correctly, and grammar Nazis like myself find it to be irksome.

Just sayin'.

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:19 pm 
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there was nothing 'potential' about it roland. mark had good cause to be angry.

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:22 pm 
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Anyone who is truly debilitated and emotionally crippled by not being allowed to spell "Tarvaris" in that fashion, needs to take Picking Your Battles 101 and get a head examination. Big honkin' deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:23 pm 
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MontanaHawk05 wrote:
Big honkin' deal.


Did you just call me a honkey?!

;)



@Sad, IDK what sparked this that was deleted or w/e, so I can't speak to it. All I know is it seems over the top from my PoV, lol. Not trying to start a war.

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:34 am 
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RockHawk wrote:
Frankly I’m shocked by those of you pushing back on this. I’ve stated many times before that I have a zero tolerance rule for anything that can even remotely be taken as racist, and this one is well over that line. Why in the hell would you be pushing back and defending something like this when you clearly have people verifying that it’s insensitive and can be taken as a racist tone?

I honestly just don’t understand. You can claim that you’re just trying to push back against unjust censorship all you want, but you are fighting to allow a potentially racist comment!!! And for what? Because you want to be able to say it to show how people are mispronouncing it?!? Are you kidding me?

Be argumentative all you want, but be smart enough to realize that by arguing on this one, you come across as defending bigotry and racial insensitivity, and I would generally distance myself from those things if it were me.

Oh well.


I completely agree with your post, Mark. The force-feeding from some members who are trying to justify the accentuation of Tarvaris' first syllable is appalling - I cannot find any reason to support those who think it's ok. It's plainly viewed by some as a hostile approach towards Tarvaris Jackson; banning is the right thing to do. Those that are "just explaining" why they did it is unnecessary at this point. The ban is in place - I think people need to move on. How about locking the thread since it is no longer productive?

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 Post subject: Re: Warning to users: Please read
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:49 am 
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Agreed. The conversation has run its course, and we'll simply enforce the rule as is now.

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